RAF Dresden Bombing Update

[batffink]

I thought I'd start a new thread for this instead of resurrecting the old 'RAF' thread which had turned feral.

Last week the the Special Dresden Historical Commission into the RAF bombing of Dresden on the nights of February 13th to the 15th 1945 published its findings.
Instead of the death counts of anything between 200,000 to 500,000 bandied about by German bleeding hearts and vociferous right wing groups, the Commission found that from 18,000 to 25,000 people died over that period as a result of the bombing.

Only a drop in the bucket compared to 6,000,000 wouldn't you say?

[FuckingRotter]

Bucket!

*wanders off singing "Vindaloo! Vindaloo! Vindaloo, vindaloo, nah-nah!"*

[sindyloo]

Very good news indeed! Now it gives the Germans a out. Hell it wasnt Millions that died in the holocust it was only a 100,000 or so...okay?!"

[FuckingRotter]

Careful sindyloo, in less tolerant societies it's a criminal offence to even suggest such a thing!

His only crime was being an idiot.

[sindyloo]

Wow! Thanks for that article very eye opening! Had no idea that people can deny it happening.

And even more being stupid enough to state that Hitler wasnt aware of it. Plausible deni-ability even back then?! Why didnt he do a little research before doing his book?

Next we will end up with a book that says the "Bataam Death March" was just a speed walking exercise!

[FuckingRotter]

Ah, forget it.

[sindyloo]

Why? and sorry wasnt being a smart ass or trying to mess things up!

[pervipete]

The ironic thing is that the History Channel actually based a TV series on the book he was holding, 'Hitlers War' without realising what an ass he was, well thats there story anyway

[Lil-Mac]

It doesnt matter if 10 people died, 10,000 died, or 100,000 died. No matter how you slice it, the fact remains that if Hitler hadnt started the war, no one would have died.

[pervipete]

True, Lil-Mac

And the figires in the report have been known for years, it just suited people to ignore them.

[Andering REDDSON]

Holocaust Denying…
Keep in mind, I’m part Jewish, so it pains me a bit to actually say this, BUT… There is actually a pretty good Holocaust denial site that suggests that yes, there WERE Jewish Internment Camps (the author compared them to American internment of the Japanese, however), and that yes, a large number of said Jews did actually die in the camps, but not of a systemic mass murder, but of Typhoid that ripped through Europe over those years.

Of course I consider the concept bullshit; I’m crazy not stupid. But it was an interesting idea, and worthy of debunking (before any more idiots buy in).

[pervipete]

Originally Posted by Andering REDDSON

Holocaust Denying…
Keep in mind, I’m part Jewish, so it pains me a bit to actually say this, BUT… There is actually a pretty good Holocaust denial site that suggests that yes, there WERE Jewish Internment Camps (the author compared them to American internment of the Japanese, however), and that yes, a large number of said Jews did actually die in the camps, but not of a systemic mass murder, but of Typhoid that ripped through Europe over those years.

Of course I consider the concept bullshit; I’m crazy not stupid. But it was an interesting idea, and worthy of debunking (before any more idiots buy in).

Yeah Andering, thats the best way to lie, admit part of the truth...scary that some people believe this bs.

[FuckingRotter]

Equally scary that you can be imprisoned for that belief. Isn't that the way heretics were treated by the Catholic church? Oh wait, they tortured them too. Silly me, not nearly as hateful.

But if you read the article, there is a list of countries where it is illegal to deny the holocaust.

Austria, well, understandable perhaps, if Hitler had been born in England I might be embarrassed. But then England invented concentration camps during the Boer war, something that we gloss over when we're busy slagging off Nazis, and those Serbian types. (Whilst conveniently forgetting that Bosnians and Croatians also tortured and murdered people during that little bun fight.)

Romania. Hmmm.... A state renowned for conveniently turning a blind eye to the persecution of gypsies. And allowed to join the EU, a privilege denied to Turkey because of human rights abuses!

Switzerland. Nueteral during WWII. Neuteral in new media speak could probably be translated into "make a quick fortune out of anyone that needs our help". Vatican much? Switzerland also recently made it a criminal offence to construct a minaret on a mosque.

Germany. I'll piss myself laughing if I even think about how anally retentive Germans are about anything that might offend someone. The idea of outlawing Holocaust denial in Germany is just ridiculous.

France. France! Well everyone on this board knows my antipathy toward that nation of garlic munching, sheep burning, communist scum. But I'll try to be impartial here. France also outlawed the wearing of religious garb and symbolism in its schools. Now, not many religions require the wearing of religious objects, but some do require their adherents to follow a certain dress code, and Sikhism requires amongst other things that its adherents don't cut their hair. As does Rastafarianism.

What? Do The Brides of The Red Christ want to turn us all in to skinheads? Bob Marley will be angry with you. I suppose they will want to banish recently returned Hajis too for being just that? "Daoud will be angry with you" also. Top marks to whoever recognises that quote.

Israel. Oy vey! Israel. No disrespect to my grandmother, or my father who hung Nazis from trees with his bootlaces in Normandy. But. Fucking Israel. Fuck Israel. Holocaust denial? A holocaust continues every day within it's own borders. And they call it self-defense. Anybody feeling even the slightest sympathy toward Israel should go and visit Beirut and ask questions. Fucking hypocrits. And Eqypt colludes with them. Two nations that should be wiped off the face of this good Earth.

[pervipete]

Well your right, but Germany has a very good reason to outloaw it, and anything to do with the Nazi's, a worry that they might rise again.

Also, if I remember right, Germany had to pass these laws to prove they where re-abilitated and able to play with the rest of Europe again.

You are right FR, the only real differences between the Nazi's and all other races is the combination of scale 6-8 million killed in camps, 25m plus as direct or indirect result of the war, and the industrialisation of the methods.

[FuckingRotter]

Laws can be repealed Pete.

[pervipete]

Not saying they can't, or whether or not they should be.

[FuckingRotter]

They should be.

What we have here is not the outlawing of something that in and of itself actually discriminates against or incites the persecution of a group of people who just happened to be born and raised a particular way. It's a way to attempt to silence an inconvenient minority.

That way leads us to authoritarianism. Want to seperate communism from facism? These are essentially allied concepts that only differ in subtle ways of how exactly society will be controlled. They want to intrude into every aspect of your personal life. Nazis burned books. So did communists. Modern day Nazis burn mosques and kebab houses, communists want to burn down your local church and McDonalds.

Communists want to seize control of the means of production and place it in to the hands of good little party workers. Facists want to push the owners of the means of production around and tell them what to produce and how much of it.

Facists and communists want us to live in a bleak socialist paradise that fits their limited way of thinking, they don't want us to read books that may lead us to question how they think, or even worse, how we've been told to think. I know you get angry at political correctness because I've seen you post saying so. In THEIR world you would be exterminated for voicing that anger.

Imprisoning David Irving is a step in the direction of realising that paradise. It doesn't matter that he's a wicked little weasling piece of shit that cried innocence as soon as he was brought before the bench. It's no more or less than most weak men would do in similar circumstance, in fact many stronger and better men too. What matters is that the state shouldn't be allowed to bring him before that bench in the first place. The state shouldn't be allowed to stifle opinion, questioning and discussion.

I've seen "anti-facists" deny the right of communities to stand up to racism by whatever means necessary, because they believe in establishing a society where everybody does as they're told and where only the law should be allowed to deal with an individuals problems! Well the law often arrives a little bit too late for some poor owner of the local Paki shop when it's burning down....

Is that the sort of "do as you're told" world you want to live in? What next? Imprison "climate change deniers" because they might incite people not to cut out that five miles a week of driving the government are trying to push? Personally I'm already inclined to go the long way round just to burn more fuel!

Ah, fuck it though, I just don't like being told what to do.

[FuckingRotter]

It's worth remembering everybody that WWII was really just a showdown between American and Russian industrial might. Those pesky Nazis just got in the way and stopped the Reds and the Septics from killing each other.

[jwham]

Of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship . . . Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.
(at the Nuremberg Trials, shortly before being sentenced to death)
Hermann Goering

[FuckingRotter]

There is a lot of wisdom in the above post, and not just when referring to war. Convince enough people that there is a threat and you can pass any law you want to. And if you're not convinced enough they'll kill you until you're in the minority. No more religion, no more cigarettes, no more driving over 50 miles an hour, no more playing conkers in the school playground. No taxation without representation.

Just pick your own idea of paradise and the fatherland will provide it for you.