Crisis - do you feel it anyhow?

[pervipete]

I think the problem is that everybody has to take responcibility for this crisis. The politicians for a lack of regulation, the banks for taking too many risks, retail for encouraging people to take out credit and store cards. People for taking out more credit then they can afford. Right down to the consumer who doesn't care where their goods come from, as long as they are cheap.

And even savers have aknowledge that didn't really care where the money for their high interest payments came from.

The trouble is, humans have a major blindspot. As a species we only see today and tomorrow, we don't realise that current conditions can change. Good times come to an end, and conversely, so will the bad times.

[Lucy.]

Honestly you could tell it would all go bust at some point. The government is throwing money at drunks and single mothers and low income families, the banks are giving people money who can't afford to pay it back. Its just disgraceful in my opinion.

I walked in to the Job Centre when I moved from one place to another. You have there your social services also. I'm looking at job leaflets with my friend and there is about 10 guys we just saw outside drinking cans of lager go in.

Clerk : "Did you apply for any jobs this week?"
Drunk : "Yes, but i didn't get it"
Clerk : "Here, have £250, better luck next week".

Its the most laughable thing I've ever seen in my life. I doubt they applied for a job, but they wouldn't get one looking and smelling like that.

And then as FR says, I have friends who suddenly show up to work in £30,000 brand new cars. You say "wow, thats expensive" and they say "Well its all on finance". Basically they pay it off over 25 years or something.

If you cannot afford to have a baby, don't have a baby. People are having babies then expecting my taxes to pay for it.. And this is acceptable/standard/the norm under this government.

Credit cards, interest, mortgages, social security.. just what on earth is the point?

You get a job. Job pays you money. You spend money and buy items. If you don't have enough money for items, you get a better job. If you can't get a better job then you don't get the items. Budget for what you can afford. Its simple. I do not expect to ever have financial trouble, because quite simply I live on what I earn, and if I was to earn less I would lower my expenditure.

In fact I'd give anything to not pay taxes. I do not use the government services, they are wasting my money, and I'd rather spend it on myself than on other peoples children or jobless wasters.

Gordon Brown is a complete incompetent fool. I despise the man and the labour government.

[pervipete]

But do we want to go back to the situation that existed before the welfare state, people starving to death because of lack of food.

And as for babies, while part of me agrees with you, I have to ask, if only the people who can fully afford children have them, where will the next generation come from? We already have an aging population.

[Lucy.]

Originally Posted by pervipete

But do we want to go back to the situation that existed before the welfare state, people starving to death because of lack of food.

And as for babies, while part of me agrees with you, I have to ask, if only the people who can fully afford children have them, where will the next generation come from? We already have an aging population.

Hmm.. well i don't want to argue Peoples political stances is something I will not disrespect. However I am pretty opposed to this government. In answer to your questions, just bear in mind that this is my opinion. It is probably a little controversial, but you should know that about me now

- Do we want to go back to people starving to death because of lack of food?

Obviously not. But we've gone too far the other way. If I am low on money at the end of the month, my dinner may consist of a £1 sausage roll and a £1 salad. I am not going to go out and buy Pizza Hut. Its a case on living on what you can afford. People on benefits who do not work eat better than me. That is wrong.

While welfare is most likely good intentional, there are people who choose not to work because they do ok on welfare. There are people (honestly) who do better by being on welfare than if they went to work.

I would rather the entire welfare system is scrapped and people have to work and live on their means than have it where I am paying so people can sit at home and claim fraudulent benefits or benefits which they get because they had an eye operation when they were 6 or something.

The welfare system is broken.

- If only the people who can afford children have them, where does the next generation come from?

The same place this generation came from and the one before. Its only recently that 16 year olds have been able to have children and the government pays for their upkeep. There isnt as many single mothers out there as the government has you believe. They just say they are single so that they can still claim benefits. If you cannot afford to have a child, you shouldn't have a child at the end of the day. There are enough people in their 20's, 30's,40's who are in a secure situation to have a child. Yes accidents happen but still, the option to sit at home with the child all day and get money through the post should never be an option. Leave the baby with your mother and go to work.

The system is broken.

My opinion though!!! You don't have to agree

[pervipete]

I can see what you are saying, and there is some truth to it.

The problem is, well without the welfare state people will starve to death, this will start with the elderly, then the disabled, then work its way down. It what was happening before National Insurance was introduced around 1908, so there is no reason why it wouldn't again.

Now the solution would be, make the elderly life with their family, but normally this families are the poorest anyway.

As for children, I know plenty of people in there 20's/ 30's who can barely afford there children, and both parents work.

I do sometimes feel sorry for mothers, some of them are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they stay home and raise they children, they are scroungers, if they go to work they are accused of putting material gain before their childrens welfare, even if all they do is a few hours behind the till in Tescos.

I think the problem with the Welfare State is that it will never reach a happy medium, if you make it easy to catch genuine need, then some people will take advantage. If you try and making it hard, you risk help not getting to those in genuine need.

The system is so much broken, as largely unloved.

My Tuppence

[Lucy.]

I think my point is that I wouldn't die.

I wouldn't die because I would get a job and earn my keep/life. If I were old I would hopefully have relatives who would help me, but failing that then certainly have some perks for the elderly such as homes etc.

But I would survive. If i lost my job, i'd get another. If i couldn't get another, i'd volunteer somewhere for experience, tough it out and then get another. If I can do this, then why can't everyone? I'm not superwoman, just a normal girl.

The state makes it so easy for people to be lazy. I know someone who doesn't work who takes home more per month than me. I work 39 hours a week minimum. How is that fair?

I could get myself a baby, sit at home all day without working and get the same amount of money. Is this a good message to send to people? I don't think so.

You said earlier, god forbid David Cameron. Personally I cannot wait for that man to take charge of the country and fully believe that he will.

Gordon Brown is in on a technicality. The people voted for Blair. Blair stepped down. Noone elected Brown. He was going to have a general election, checked the polls, realised he was going to lose and decided to begrudge us this. Just like he is begrudging us the choice to say no to the Euro (every country that signed up to it is reporting major blows to their economies and the citizens say its the worst thing that ever happened). Brown is a dictator who doesn't want us to have a choice. He figures that he can be seen as the "savior" of this crisis then call an election and win.

Eventually he will have no choice but to call this election. And he will lose. For the good of the country he must lose. It may have been his dream to be prime minister, but without us voting for him? I'm really suprised he doesn't have the dignity to resign or to give us a vote.

[Lucy.]

I have no problems by the way if Brown runs in a general election and wins. While I detest him, he will be the Prime Minister legitimately.

I did not like Tony Blair but I very much respected that he was voted in by our public, and thats what democracy is about, its brilliant. But noone chose Brown for PM. Until he wins an election I think its a disgrace he has the power to make any decisions about running our country.

[pervipete]

I can't argue against that Lucy that last post.


To be honest, Cameron always come across as a little, well annoying, and lightweight.

First they will do one thing, and then something different.

And don't forget, it was the last Tory goverment who deregulated everything, made it easier for foreign companies to buy british firms (and then move them abroad), sold off all the power and gas to there friends in the city. Created the housing crisis by forcing councils to sell their housing stock and refusing to allow them to replace them, therefor meaning that a whole generation has been forced into either getting a high mortage or paying high rent.

And then you get the ERM fiasco, god knows how many near missies during the Eighties/ early nineties.

All the while nearly screwing up the armed forces so bad that Argentina thought it was a good idea to invade the Falklands, if they had waited until the Aussies had bought HMS Invincible, Hermes, Fearless and Intrepid had been scrapped, there would not have been a damn thing we could have done about.

Oh and Google HMS Upholder class submarines.

A couple of years ago there was a ho ha about the possibility of us losing our EU rebate, hard won by Mrs Thatcher, may she rot in hell (I know she's still alive, but I can dream). Weeellll, this is international equivelent of tax credits, given to us because by then, we had the weakest economy in Europe, if not the whole world.

Oh and by the way, it was this goverment that axed the original min wage, and brought in the Council Tax.
And that's before we get to the 3million unemplyed, in a recession that was not have as bad as this one is shaping up to be

No I can't wait for them to get in power, just like I can't wait to get run over by a bus.

[sparks]

who is brown other than our new american president ???

and that dont make a crap of a diff

sound like a brit thing

first tea now brown when will you all just get the hint

cheers

[Lucy.]

Brown is the name of the British Prime Minister Sparks

Pete, your living in the past That was a long time ago. Labour used to be for the workers and Conservatives used to be for the rich. Its changed. Both parties are very very similar to each other.

"New labour" was far more like a conservative party than old labour was. There really hasn't been that much difference in our political parties for a while.

"lightweight" is a word that Obama used to describe Cameron and now its the buzzword being thrown around by everyone. Listen to his speeches and one thing stands out. He really cares. He cares about the people, the economy, the GBP, every single citizen. Listen to Brown and if you can understand anything he says, he just jibbers and glosses over things and says "we need experienced leader" etc etc. He hasn't actually done anything positive to note since he got in.. which is a year or so now?

He was in charge of our finances before he became Prime Minister. Its mostly his fault we are in the mess we are in, he is incapable of getting us out of it and Labour don't have a notable candidate where as the conservatives do.

So I will certainly vote for Cameron. And you will vote for Brown. And this is why politics is great. My objection is Brown being in and making major decisions which will take years to reverse (buying out banks and paying corrupt bankers £500 million pensions out of our taxes) before he is officially voted in. If and when that happens I will support him 100% for the good of the country.

[sparks]

Brown is the name of the British Prime Minister Sparks

You guys got a prime minister now I thought you were still an anarchy

can you learn to spell democracy yet ??

congrats

[FuckingRotter]

"New" Labour is no different from the old. They were never for the worker, they were and still are for replacing our old ruling class with a new ruling elite. At the moment they're doing a pretty good job of it. Give them a few more terms in power and we will be living in The United Socialist Republic of Europe. America will be our enemy, China our slavemaster and Cuba a holiday resort for well behaved privileged party members.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[pervipete]

You know what they say Lucy,

They who don't learn from history are destined to repeat it.

And remember, Ken Clarke, the Shadow Buisness Secretary, was part of that Goverment.

People were calling Cameron a lightweight when Obarma was still an senator.

I would respect him more if he went into a poor area and said 'Look I'm posh, I don't know struggle, I never have, and hope I never will. But I want to bring you close to my level' instead of all this 'ordinary man' bs.

The said fact is that politicians never change, whether, the names do, but the policies don't.

Actually, this is starting to go round in circles so if you don't mind I'm going to withdraw from the fray.

See ya all

[FuckingRotter]

It's worth bearing in mind that our greatest advances in standard of living have been through public health programmes, not socialised medicine and welfare provision. Improvements in water treatment, clean air acts, industrial improvements, vaccination programmes, they're all relatively inexpensive, and cost to taxpayers is recouped in increased revenue, cost to industry in improved labour relations and improved workforce health. By comparison health and welfare provision is costly and that cost increases as more people come to rely on the system either legitimitely as they age, or by screwing the system that has become too overwhelmed to cope.

And no amount of babies being born to provide more taxpayers will ever keep up with that. It will just compound the situation.

Lucy may sound selfish when she says what she says, why should she subsidise the less fortunate. But we're being told now by Alistair Darling that nations must learn to live within their means. To me that includes it's citizens, whether they're planning to renovate their home, have a family, or send their kids to university. This all has to be paid for and it's about time we stopped borrowing to do it.

[pervipete]

I don't think Lucy is being selfish, it's her opinion and she is as entitled to it as I am my, as is anyone.

And on thet last point, do you think ordinary people have sown the seeds of their own destruction.

When I moved out of my parents and into my own rented flat, most of my furniture was make do and mend. Either secondhand, scrounged from parents/ friends, or just bought because I needed something and it was the only I could afford, for instance I have a shelving unit that was originally designed for garage/ shed use. Even my first plates, cups, cutlery etc came my way because one of my friends was trying to move to Dubai and didn't need it.

I mentioned this to some people at work, and their reaction was 'eeww, second hand, couldn't have secondhand in my place.

We also get people going on about not being able to buy somewhere. Well around the corner from me there is an old, at least pre-war, two bed terrace house for sale. £100k, and this is in the south east, where everthing is supposed to be expensive.

Alright, it needs a bit of work done to it, but nothing major, and it's not in the nicest area, but as a starter family home, great. If I could have got a mortgage, I would have it.

So is part of problem the 'I want it all and I want it now' generation?

[Lucy.]

Originally Posted by FuckingRotter

Lucy may sound selfish when she says what she says, why should she subsidise the less fortunate.

This is partly what I'm saying but also if you look at what the money actually goes on, its not always the less fortunate.

If for instance you say a percentage of my wages is going to OAP's to fund care homes, and this is something I must do as a British citizen, then I am not going to begrudge that. If it goes to improve the roads, then even though I don't personally use most of them I understand this.

I don't personally think anything I earn should in anyway go to the 16 year old mother who slept with a 14 year old boy (and half the school) and got pregnant. I'm not going to get onto the morals of this case, but to expect us to pay for it is wrong.

I don't think anything I earn should go to the person who "cannot" get a job because they show up to interviews wearing rags and still recovering from the cider the night before.

I don't think anything I earn should go to the man and woman who stay at home all day because they get more money doing this than if the man was to go to work and the woman was to do some part time hours.

I don't think its fair that that couple are put in the position where its more beneficial to stay at home all day either. I know a man who would love to be working, but the difference is £200 a month, and to a young family thats a lot of money.

So yes, I don't really feel I should subsidise others in general but if I have to then there at least should be a benefit system which cannot be fiddled or worked around, and the money goes to worthy causes. I would prefer a mandatory donation to a charity or government function of my choice personally.

[pervipete]

I can see what you are saying, and I agree with most of it, however..

The example of the 16 year old mother, on the face of you are right, why should we fund her, but, what about the baby, should we condeme he/ she to a life of poverty becuase of what her mother did?

My dad was a scrounger, he also was a thief, professional bullshiter, skirt chasing bully. My dad would get a job, get bored, and then go 'sick', I mention this not so much for sympathy, but to ask a question, should I be condemed as well because of something my father was up to. Should it be, to borrow a quote from the bible, 'sins of the father visited upon the child'?

[FuckingRotter]

Yesterday Sky Television News were running a debt counter recording how much borrowed money the government are spending. It started running at 7am and by 10pm the total was above £200million. That's money the government doesn't have, on top of the taxes they already took. Anybody not feeling the recession yet certainly will feel it when their taxes go up, probably when the next government is formed.

Something else I've noticed is that the roads are busier early on Monday mornings than they were a month ago, and rush hour starts later on a Friday.

[Fibonacci]

Thanks all of you guys for responses. Things are getting better.
Well, the situation is still the same, but it does not appear to be a problem any more

We talked to my and my gf parents and everybody are OK with the situation and very supportive. There is not much documents we need, and as we don't want it to be a "true big" wedding we can manage everything quite easily. We only need to decide some smaller things like

- do we need a wedding dress (99% yes, my gf is quite happy she will be in white twice )
- will we buy the wedding rings now or will we use some normal for now (99% we will buy them now)
- when to do that - it will be the second half of May, but they have opened for weddings only on Saturday and Sunday (why?) and we wanted to have it during a week, so my gf parents can be there. Then probably Sunday afternoon

And I have to buy a betrothal ring and ask my gf, if she wants to marry me And have to do it soon.

But thats all just a small problems easy to solve. Yesterday my gf tried some wedding gown and showed me a pictures on her cell phone of that. She is soooo cute in them!

Well, things are going the right way I think

[FuckingRotter]

I have to say Fibonacci that this thread was a very complex way of telling us you're getting married.

But congratulations, both for the thread and on your impending doom!