GangRaped at Homecoming

[menace]

Originally Posted by Sternenlied

Well, I still assume you didn't write anything offensive based on the sole purpose of being offensive to begin with.
However a person expecting to "piss someone off" (by their own perception) might actually start stating opinions with exactly that in mind, leading to an intended "insensitivity". Especially when you believe to know in advance what you're about to say will be "provocative".

I might subconsciously do that I suppose. Discussion boards in my native language are extremely poorly moderated and as a result are usually so full of anger, stupidity, bias and hatred that when I'm on them, I no longer even bother with politeness and reasonable discussions as it's just pointless. You regularly have real fascists there advocating the holocaust as a valid attempt to set the world straight, and they are lauded by more than a marginal percentage of participants, that's how bad it is there. The habit sometimes takes over when I'm in more civilized company as well.

But I think it's more to with the fact that in all odds, someone is going to take offense no matter how well worded and explained it is, so in the limited time I have, I just try to be as short and to the point as I can be.

Now, to explain (not to attack mind you everyone who might [un-]intentionally mistake my meaning):

It is presumptuous (eventuelly even offensive) to generally assume so many people at once lack the capability of telling the difference between an attack and a consensual act because their education might not have told them the difference by now - also by assuming the US American educational system (as well as the pupils) are that stupid.
I went to Catholic School for Girls - and thus had no sex-ed at all - but in modern times of media covering almost everything there is no way that many people had no idea whatsoever.

If she actually was not defending herself - eventually due to a state of intoxication - still every member of society who is not Amish (refering to general media again) should be able to tell something off is taking place.

Nobody at all at least expressing concern to the club owners, others, even the police because every single one lacked the knowledge and/or understanding to realize this? I can certainly see why so many people might take offense to such a statement.

True, but I didn't mean to say everyone was ignorant. I'm not sure now if I made a point of saying 'some' in my original post more than once, but I believed this to be common sense.

Of course stating the possibility the victim might have been physically beaten at the end of the attack by her last assailant but putting a question mark behind it doesn't make it any more presumptuous than everybody else's posts.
It is a possibility of course but what is the probability of someone being completely unconscious for the entire duration of such an attack only to come about and fight for the last attacker?
It doesn't matter - exactly. In this case (see above) the impression of a regular sex act couldn't have been given.

To someone experiencing sex for themselves definitely not. Not necessarily to someone who knew about sex mostly from porn movies. Hence why I pointed out most of the bystanders were teenagers.

Your distinction between a) "a girl being raped" and b) "a drunk slut being nailed" is highly offensive. I'll assume this wasn't your intent but reducing the possibilities to a drunk teenager (calling her a slut doesn't make it any less offensive but then again - maybe that's your education) and a rape victim is not just offensive but repulsive.

It most definitely is! But the reason I put those two sentences in quotation marks was to indicate two different conclusions the people watching might have come to.

It is certainly true that many studies have shown people aren't very inclined to help a stranger when there might be danger for their own personal safety. Why would that be an excuse however? Simply because people don't like to help a stranger doesn't make not doing so when someone is being attacked accceptable in any way. Why would that have to be considered?

It's not commendable, but I also don't think it fair to judge someone for acting the same way that most people would of. A bit hypocritical to me.

Why would it have to say anywhere the victim was a nice person? Why even bring that up when you do not want to imply she might have deserved it or at least to imply she might not have deserved people coming to her help? What is it you're saying? Only nice people we know deserve help?
Do you really not see why some members might be offended or angered by such a statement?

Well, I actually don't. What I intended was to point out a possibility that the fact a lot of people disliked her may be the reason why she got no help. Would it justify the people who (possibly may have) disliked her for not helping her?
Most definitely not.

Like I said in the first place - I do appreciate people who actually try to bring a neutral and more differentiated point of view into a discussion, highlighting some possibilities that might have been forgotten.
The way you did it however was misguided - that's where you failed and that's why you failed.

If you indeed "piss people off" half the time you voice your opinion you might want to think about that. Individuality and standing up for one's mind is sound, important even, but sometimes it's not the entire world who is wrong and we might have to reevaluate our ways.

I have actually thought about it.

[Lil-Mac]

The young girl has been released from the hospital and the police have released a little more information.

The timeline for the attack and what happened was basicly this....

About 9:30 pm the girl(as yet unidentifed) went outside to get a ride home. Once outside the school gym (not a club Menace as you keep saying) where the dance was being held she bumped into someone she knew. This person then (a male) then told her there was something cool going on around the corner he wanted to show her. Once around the corner and out of sight from the school entrance she was attacked and drug down an ally to an unlighted courtyard on the backside of the school.

There she was beaten, stripped and then the rapes began. At first there were four attackers. At some point (still not clear on this) word got out what was going on, either by one of the rapist going into the school dance, or by someone who wandered by. However it happened word got out. People began coming out of the dance to see what was going on, somehow without making either the police that were in the building nor the school staff aware of the event.

By this time the girl had been knocked unconscious and others in the crowd began to assualt her as well. The police have now learned that as many as 10 people either raped her, or actively participated in the attack by holding her down. These attacks lasted until about 11:30 pm, with the girl being raped multiple times by each attacker. They were witnessed by at least 10 additional people who did nothing to help the young girl.

About midnight as people were leaving the dance a young man overheard two people bragging about what they had done and how "cool" it had been. He told his sister what he had heard and at this point the police were finally called.

The police found the girl unconscious under a lunch table. She was badly beaten, a medivac helicoptor was called to rush her to the hospital in critical condition.

Todate six arrests have been made, all of people who actually raped her. Two adults, ages 21 and 19, as well as four minors aged 14 to 17. The identities of the two adults have been released along with their pictures. The first two arrested were the 19 year old and a 15 year old. Information provided by them has led to the arrests of the other four, with more arrests pending.

All six are being charged as adults. The charges include assualt, kidnapping, rape, sexual assualt with a foreign object and some lesser charges. If found guilty these men, along with any others arrested could very well spend the rest of their lives behind bars. Too bad Cali doesnt have the death penalty because that is what they deserve.

As to those who watched and did nothing, some have been identifed but their names have not yet been released. The State is reviewing it's options on what charges, if any, can be brought against them. For some crazy reason there is an age limit of 14 on Cali's "Good Samaritan" law. So it is possible that since the victim is 15 there will be no charges brought against them at all.

[menace]

Guess I'm proven wrong on at least a few counts then. It happens.

[Sternenlied]

Originally Posted by menace

But I think it's more to with the fact that in all odds, someone is going to take offense no matter how well worded and explained it is, so in the limited time I have, I just try to be as short and to the point as I can be.

Which doesn't necessarily have to a bad thing. In many situations actually a talent I very much appreciate.
Especially when talking about "difficult" subjects, even more so when having a provocative opinion, however that's exactly what might lead to misunderstandings and misconceptions.
I am not saying extended and politically double-checked paragraphs are required to avoid any possible miscommunication - those can be equally annoying - but sometimes walking the line can carry us a little too far across.

Originally Posted by menace

(...) but I believed this to be common sense.

Unfortunately a subjective matter than cannot be measured by any scientific standards, at least not to a satisfying degree.
In my opinion I believed it to be common sense for at least one of so many people to realize a crime was being committed. I felt it is common sense for someone to understand why many members where so "shaken" by it. So many things so many of us believe to be common sense ...
That's one of the reasons why getting to the point in a way as short as possible might lead to angry people.

Originally Posted by menace

To someone experiencing sex for themselves definitely not. Not necessarily to someone who knew about sex mostly from porn movies. Hence why I pointed out most of the bystanders were teenagers.

Another example of two extreme (and invalid) distinctions ... "people who have experienced sex themselves" and "teenagers who know about sex mostly from porn movies". I do not know how you learned about sex in your teenage years but I am quite certain not every single teenager (not even US American ones) learns about sex exclusively from porn movies. There are other media as well, even in the USA.

Originally Posted by menace

But the reason I put those two sentences in quotation marks was to indicate two different conclusions the people watching might have come to.

Yes.
Some might have known the victim and felt she deserved it.
Some might have misinterpreted what was happening. I simply reject your statement conceding all of them might have. As well as you offering only these two options.

Originally Posted by menace

It's not commendable, but I also don't think it fair to judge someone for acting the same way that most people would of. A bit hypocritical to me.

Why is it hypocritical to reject behaviour simply because it is exhibited by a majority?
Accepting it and thus excusing it on the other hand is quite pitiful, hiding behind the overall actions of the masses or others is just cowardly.

Originally Posted by menace

What I intended was to point out a possibility that the fact a lot of people disliked her may be the reason why she got no help. Would it justify the people who (possibly may have) disliked her for not helping her?
Most definitely not.

Well, your entire (initial post) - as highlighted by yourself in the following posts - was to point out other possibilities and show the participating members another perspective they might have overlooked.
So, if you do not defend anyone who might not have liked the victim for not helping her, why make a point of it at all?

[Jaded]

So, let me get this straight.

You do not live in America and do not have the access to updates and information as most of those who do who live here, in the same state and in more than a couple cases in the same city.

Yet, you somehow feel that you have a more enlightened perspective of what or may not have happened than we do?

Please take your own advice and check your facts before commenting. I know I did and I know Fae did, we have been following the story since the first press release which initially did not have all the facts and said as much. Then the following stories (Yahoo news, CNN, the Oakland news, Richmond's newspaper and the half a dozen people I know in the Oakland PD) started filling in the missing facts of the case, which is what we, after consideration accepted as truth and posted about.

So I guess what offends me, is the blanket assumption that we would all knee-jerk and assert something as fact based on a purely emotional response. You are not the only person in the world capable of critical thought and I honestly must say if you think the users of this board are culled from the ranks of "Joe-average', then you have another think coming.

You are handling it a bit better now I believe, but you know what they say about first impressions. Your original message was lost in the generally insulting nature of your initial postings. And your sig line really did not help your cause as it also seeks to present you as somehow elevated above your peers, whom you really know nothing about and should be loath to make such assumptions regarding.

[ChiTownHoney]

Originally Posted by menace

Considering all that, were the witnesses really able to distinguish between a 'girl being raped' and a 'drunken slut getting nailed' ?

Yep, that we dont know. Stories are stories, told from different perspectives. I can understand why not one person would have intervened, knowing the dynamics of group mentality. However, all it had to take was a one person intervention to make more bystanders involved. Its much harder to do something when nobody else is and you see others just stopping and watching, especially when it concerns younger bystanders. However, the above questions still remains. Not that it is right, but we dont know the whole story.

I dont know what kind of neighborhood this occured in...but sometimes if you see something, you dont say anything. Or else your life or your families life could be in danger. Snitches are badly prosecuted, and not by the law.

[Fae]

Originally Posted by ChiTownHoney

Yep, that we dont know. Stories are stories, told from different perspectives. I can understand why not one person would have intervened, knowing the dynamics of group mentality. However, all it had to take was a one person intervention to make more bystanders involved. Its much harder to do something when nobody else is and you see others just stopping and watching, especially when it concerns younger bystanders. However, the above questions still remains. Not that it is right, but we dont know the whole story.

I dont know what kind of neighborhood this occured in...but sometimes if you see something, you dont say anything. Or else your life or your families life could be in danger. Snitches are badly prosecuted, and not by the law.

Yeah, mob mentality at it's finest.

One thing you said that I think was part of it. This was a neighborhood where speaking up can get you and your family killed. A lot of the bystanders WERE cheering it on and participating in other ways, but there were others who weren't. There were even a few woman who came up at the end and were too afraid to do anything because they were afraid of becoming targets. I only want them to go after the ones cheering it on, taping it for fun, stealing from the victim, and the other things that have been listed with this incident. When I talk about going after the people watching, I do recognize that some might have been afraid to call the police because of the snitching BS and some were afraid the mob would go after them if they tried to intervene.

This type of stuff always makes mob situations doubly hard to deal with. If anything I hope it makes people wake up and start dealing with Richmond because the problems is not only a few kids, but a completely broken community. Richmond has the 8th highest crime rate in the United States (2008) and a higher murder rate than Oakland (#5 in crime in the US). This year, with the job market there plummeting, crime went up even worse almost doubling homicides in the area this year. The situation is tragic, the problem is bigger than the one situation.

[kcmoccy]

i'm glad i could get a good thread going, and hope this teaches somewhere something, i didnt read past the post where superman phantom came down on me

i lost my desire to post here
i'm not sure i want someone yelling at me on a rape forum
telling me that underage fantasies which i didnt have are illegal on a rape forum
eh

i got a lot here, many great ways of thinking and i hope you all find here what u r looking for

for me it served it's purpose, a way to spend some bored time
be safe

[BTN]

Wow. Been away for a bit and I come back to see this thread. Naturally I've googled and read and poked around to get myself a bit more informed. This is a truley horrific story. Although shockingly its my belief that this kind of thing happens more often than you might think. This is a more extreme case though. A girl of 15 getting 10 or more guys going to town on her seemingly at random is something that is difficult to get your head around. I'm sure there is more than a couple of people on this site both male and female that are turned on by this story and sure theres something about this that makes for a good story. But unfortunatly for the girl who this happened to this wasn't a consenting roleplay with safe words. This was a full on attack that left her needing urgent medical attention and although our minds rightfully go to the idea of "why didn't anyone do anything" I think we all need to take a moment to spare a thought for the young girl this happened to who undoubtedly will never be the same again.

[Lil-Mac]

You are right BTN... for the girl this was a life changing, quite possibly a life shattering event. Just imagine after she recovers (tho I doubt she will ever fully recover) she will eventually have to return to that school. Every boy's face she see's she could be thinking, Was he one of the ones? Did this one watch and do nothing? maybe her family can move, or the school system lets her transfer, I hope so anyway.

Also as horrible as the attack itself was, for me the truly disgusting thing was the apathy of the bystanders. At best doing nothing to help, while several actually joined in.

[pervipete]

Well said BTN.

I can almost see why fear would drive you to do nothing about this, while I can't agree with it, I can understand.

But to join in...that I can't get my head around.

But as for going back to the school, I hope as well that for once red tape works and she can be transfered, though in her mind at least whe will always be the girl who was gangraped in public.

And another thought, how will she know that someone didn't secretly film this? It happens, and its easy enough on a mobile phone...shit I hope not.

Everytime I hear about this, I juts can't beleive it. I know it happened, but, shit...

Its like the storyline from a bad 70's revenge film, not real life.

My thoughts and prayers are for the girl and her family.

[infernalbovine]

Not funny!

Sternenlied

[pervipete]

Originally Posted by infernalbovine

i hope she gets pregnant. Can you just imagine? Oh my god i was gangraped and now i'm pregnant and i don't even know which of those 10 bastards is the father. Lol i
i hope her family is pro-life and against abortion so she wouldn't have any choice but to carry the baby. And no ceasarian section that would ease the pain it should be excruciatingly painful yum yum ^_^

troll alert...

[Jaded]

Obliterating all traces...save the bridge troll.

[Lil-Mac]

Holy Shite I cant believe someone actually posted something like that... Even as a joke geez how flipping sick can you be... damn.

[Obikenobi]

I just read this thread, so excuse me for bumping it. I actually appreciate menace for his stand, it reminds of the movie '12 angry men' (and I believe a play called 12 Jurors based on it) where one of the jury members refuses to go along with the group mentality (how ironic) and makes everyone discuss the case. I think he made some valid points and there were equally valid responses and it was a good contribution overall.

I'm not surprised this happened, so many people simply don't give a fuck about their own friends and family, let alone strangers. Watch in any big city how crowds will walk past a poor and homeless child (not just in the US but in poorer countries too) without so much as a glance, or even thinking about giving him some money for food, or just a kind word. I'm sure for some people watching others' misery makes them feel better about themselves, even though they don't think that consciously. We live in a sad world.

[Skirt-fun]

Poor girl, there are some sick bastards in this world.

Originally Posted by Forced02

2hrs long ??and nobody did anything to help this girl it has to be bullshit . Well I certainly hope so

i agree 2 hrs far to long sum one wud of intervined

[Lil-Mac]

Thats the point War. No one did... thats what makes it so shocking. Girls get raped everyday. It's a horrible fact of life.. but it is a fact of life. And in some parts of the world even a brutal gangrape like this is not uncommon, but in an American suburb... right outside a school, where kids she went to school with took part, or at the very least stood by, watched and did nothing.

That is what makes this so shocking... also your post implies that you believe it didnt happen. I assure you, it most definately did.

Originally Posted by Lil-Mac

Thats the point War. No one did... thats what makes it so shocking. Girls get raped everyday. It's a horrible fact of life.. but it is a fact of life. And in some parts of the world even a brutal gangrape like this is not uncommon, but in an American suburb... right outside a school, where kids she went to school with took part, or at the very least stood by, watched and did nothing.

That is what makes this so shocking... also your post implies that you believe it didnt happen. I assure you, it most definately did.

yes i most definatly belive that it did not happen, unless you can show me proof that it happened, i think i will remain a sceptic!

2hrs is too long
i can not belive people would not have contacted the police.
outside a school of all places, teachers might of intervened.

i can understand that the rape probably did happen and was probably near a school, but as with most stories it has probably been over exagerated!v