You Septics think you've got problems....

[FuckingRotter]

Forget worrying about whether you're going to get another Bush, another, or this Trump geezer. The only credible opposition party in the UK looks set to elect some idiot who wants to re-nationalise railways, postal services, and anything else he can get his hands on. Basicly this means putting industry in to state ownership, and robbing from everyone to give to any cunt that wears a red tie!

I don't have much of a point to make her, except that socialists are complete fucking morons. Don't they realise that the UK got over this stupidity in 1979?

[HRH1948]

"Two centuries ago, a somewhat obscure Scotsman named Tytler made this profound observation: 'A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy'.”

What are the odds of a Margaret Thatcher coming to power at the same time that Ronald Reagan was president?

What were the odds of a such an extraordinary gathering of genius being present at the time of the founding of the USA?

What were the odds of a US victory at Midway?

What were the odds of a single pilot being essentially responsible for the defeat of both Japan and Germany in World War II?

If divine intervention was responsible, then why can't it happen again?

If it wasn't responsible, then there is no hope and we should all collect guns and ammo.

[HRH1948]

"Windage and elevation, Mrs. Langdon."

[RapeU]

Wait Japan and Germany? I get the Japan part but I'm not sure what you're talking about in regards to Germany as we didn't drop the A-bomb on them.

[HRH1948]

Originally Posted by RapeU

Wait Japan and Germany? I get the Japan part but I'm not sure what you're talking about in regards to Germany as we didn't drop the A-bomb on them.

Colonel James Doolittle led the first attack on Japan by American bombers in World War II. Even though the bombing damage was minimal, the Doolittle Raid caused the Japanese high command to over react at Midway. The Battle of Midway was the beginning of the Japanese end.

The 8th Air Force was making little headway against the Germans. Our losses were staggering. German fighter planes were always there to counter our bombers and we were unable to achieve air superiority. A promoted General James Doolittle was put in command of the 8th Air Force and completely redesigned the tactics. Fighter planes were no longer only used to escort bombers. They were sent into German air space to attack the German fighter planes and finally achieve air superiority. Without air superiority, the D Day landings at Normandy would not have been possible.

Actually, the "A-bomb" had little to do with the outcome of the war. In reality, it only affected the Russian input at the end of the war with Japan. But, what would have happened if we didn't have boots on the ground in Europe and a rogue general named Patton, capturing more real estate faster than anyone in history. Without the air superiority provided by the tactics of Doolittle, would Hitler's minions have had the time to complete their own heavy water experiments and would have eventually finished their own "A Bomb"?

[HRH1948]

Just for shits and giggles, compare any of the death tolls of the atomic blasts in WWII Japan to the death toll at the non-military fire bombing of Dresden, Germany by the vengeful and disgraceful British Royal Air Force. Dresden was nothing less than a war crime! The victors write the history and prosecute the defeated.

[FuckingRotter]

The war in Europe was won in Stalingrad, over South East England, and in North Africa. After that Hitler was fucked. Was Doolittle involved in any of that? As you say, the victor writes the history. The victor would even have us believe he captured an enigma machine! Even the victors part in North Africa was limited, and success already assured by the time good ol' Unky Sam gathered the moral fibre to enter the fray.

[HRH1948]

As most inventions could not have been possible without a previous invention, the turning point of WWII could be argued was Hitler’s decision to declare war on the United States in December of 1941. Ever wonder what would have happened if he had betrayed the Japanese, faked horror over the cowardly attack on Pearl Harbor and declared war on Japan instead?


Early on, Britain was on the brink of defeat, Churchill was oiling his personal shotgun and German landing crafts were being assembled on the French coast when Hitler stupidly redirected his Luftwaffe from attacking the RAF to civilian targets. The RAF managed to rebuild, fortify and make a remarkable comeback in the Battle of Britain. Undoubtedly, Doolittle learned from Hitler’s mistake and never turned his back on the German fighter plane.


Stalingrad was another glaring mistake by Hitler, but hardly a turning point. Unless you believe the Communist propaganda, it was more like Hitler 0, Stalin 0 and the Russian winter 1.


North Africa? North Africa? It would appear that Germany and Britain found a non-strategic no man’s land in which to conduct training exercises for a future conflict, I fail to see what the fuss was all about.


At least I’ve finally found commonality between the English, French and Russians. They still cling to the foolish misguided notion that the United States wasn’t responsible for the German, Italian and Japanese defeats in WWII. Blind brain washed fools one and all!

[batffink]

Originally Posted by HRH1948

Just for shits and giggles, compare any of the death tolls of the atomic blasts in WWII Japan to the death toll at the non-military fire bombing of Dresden, Germany by the vengeful and disgraceful British Royal Air Force. Dresden was nothing less than a war crime! The victors write the history and prosecute the defeated.

With the greatest of respect my venerable and doddery friend, I think that age has addled your mind somewhat. I take great offence at your description of the Royal Air Force as "disgraceful". So the poor Germans were bombed to fuck at Dresden?
Remind me again who it was that bombed the fuck out of London, Warsaw, Rotterdam, Hull, Birmingham, Coventry, Malta, Portsmouth, Glasgow etc. etc. etc. as well as setting up Belsen, Auschwitz, Ravensbruck and Majdanek.
The Germans sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind. THEY were fucking disgraceful.

[FuckingRotter]

North Africa non-strategic? The Suez canal must have been dug after the war ended then. Never mind that North Africa provided a platform from which to supply partizans in Yugoslavia as well as launching raids in to Greece and eventually invading mainland Europe.

So what Hitler made mistakes? His biggest mistake was to over stretch himself. He should have been satisfied with Austria. The British Empire provided the US with two platforms from which to contribute once they decided to join in. The cynic in me thinks the US were really fighting the Soviets any way.

[HRH1948]

The Royal Air Force committed nothing less than a war crime by fire bombing a non-military target with the sole intent of burning women, children and old folks alive at Dresden. It was an absolutely barbaric terrorist exercise equal to any atrocity committed by the Germans or Japanese during the war. The Americans used the same fire bombing tactics on several Japanese cities with the same results. It brought us down to the level of the enemy and showed the world and ourselves the true level of our own hypocrisy.

Yugoslavian partisans? Greek raids? Talk about foot notes in history. The ditch in the desert was about as useful to the war effort as teats on a boar hog. But, I suppose the French in Madagasgar did need toilet paper.

Britain did serve as a platform for the US Army to launch into Europe and kick German ass. Unfortunately, as payment, we had to agree to put up with Field Marshall Bernard Montgomery. His many failures cost more American lives than Field Marshall Erwin Rommel's successes did.

[FuckingRotter]

HRH, your complete ignorance astounds me! The loss of Suez would have meant Empire shipping from India would have had to have gone around Cape of Good Hope. The US wasn't the only place supplying Britain with food and other resources. Afrikaans saboteurs were active in Southern Africa throughout the war. Empire being in control of the Mediterranean from Cyprus to Gibraltar hinged saved a great deal in time and resources.

Titos partizans played a huge role in tying up the Wehrmacht, sure, the Balkans may have seemed like a back water to good ol' Unky Sam, but Titos activities diverted huge resources from Western Europe when he began a copy cat campaign of the resistance figthers in France and Belgium. Germanys defence relied upon railways, partizans and resistance fighters both attacked these to very great effect.

If you want to know what probably really swung the war in the Allieds favour, it wasn't some cowboy airman. It was the war on the railways. Even your own nations military recognised the importance of this enough to divert resources to it. By the time of D-Day, the effort on attacking the railways in Nazi controlled Germany was so concentrated, the network so saturated, Germany simply could not keep up. Even if Hitler had the army to stop D-Day, he could never have got it there.

This was achieved very simply. What the French called Couers des Points, metal blocks that supported the rails at junctions. Every martialling yard, junction, maintenance depot, had these blocks blown up, again, again, and again, until supply ran out. After this Germany was paralysed.

Then to rub salt in to the wounds, Tito blew up the only crane Germany had capable of righting de-railed trains. None of this would have been possible if Empire had lost the war in North Africa and over the English Channel.

I'm going to take a very unusual step, I'm going to recommend you read a book. It's titled Nine Rivers From Jordan. I can only remember the authors surname, Vaughan. He was a Dublin born correspondant for the BBC during WWII. I have the impression he was somewhat impartial. It may help your understanding much more than any history, either published, or oral, that you have received so far.

There was also a book I read about ten years ago, about an American soldier dropped in to Nazi occupied France prior to D-Day, to help co-ordinate efforts between Britain and the resistance. His accounts were very interesting, unfortunately I can't remember the book title, or the authors name.

It may also help you to re-achieve focus to know that when allied forces began to enter Germany, they met resistance from children and old men. These weren't civilians, these were uniformed and trained people, with military supplies. Puts the bombing of Dresden in to perspective, doesn't it? Also, if you wound your neck in, and went back forty years, I'd like to see you tell my Nan that bombing Dresden was a war crime. She spent two years hiding in Underground stations in the East End of London, she would probably have kicked you in your cunt. You Septics really have no sense of what it means to be a nation under siege. Pearl Harbour, and a bit of sabotage in New Yorks docks, don't make me fucking laugh! Even 11th of the 9th pales in to comparison to what Europeans have had to suffer because of war.

[HRH1948]

Fortunately, I didn’t live the history of WWII. The history I know was learned from text books, quite a few film documentaries, quite a few biographies, an 18 volume set written by a retired US army colonel and the firsthand accounts of my elders.

Granted, practically all of my knowledge is American based. I literally went back and checked references to the Suez Canal and Tito in my university text book for the course "The History of World War II". Literally, both rated little more than two paragraphs. There was an interesting little book entitled the "War Magician". It went into detail regarding Jasper Maskelyne designing a strange flashing light or illusion that prevented the Germans from making night attacks on Allied shipping in the Suez. It didn’t elaborate on the importance of protecting the canal.

My Russian friends have a totally different history of WWII. It’s a history that they were taught and believe. But, hell they’re Russian. They believe that the Russians invented the Internet and Al Gore stole the invention.

My late Czech Great Aunt was in Berlin during the closing days of the war. Her history was totally different than anything I was ever taught. It was tainted by the German propaganda machine

Now, I learn that my English friends have a different version of history as well.

My uncle was at Normandy, Bastogne and Berlin. His history was an American’s view.

To the British, Doolittle was a cowboy pilot. To us, he was a brilliant courageous officer that was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor and played an integral part in the defeat of two enemy nations.

We were taught that Tito was a communist puppet dictator and political opportunist that had little to do with the WWII victory.

We were taught that the Germans thought the real invasion was to be at Calais and that Normandy was a diversion. And by the time they learned the truth (weeks too late), we had enough strength on the beach to repel the reserves. We were taught that Doolittle’s 8th air force’s Thunderbolts and the RAF’s Mosquitoes had literally destroyed every locomotive within a hundred miles of Normandy and that enemy tanks or heavy troop groups couldn’t move in daylight for the same reasons.

The bombings of London, Dresden and Tokyo were stupid from a military standpoint and were indefensible war crimes. How is that not ethnic cleansing?

Revenge is not a motive for the slaughter of innocents. An eye for an eye creates a blind world. Make no mistake. When the innocent put on a uniform and carry a weapon, all innocence is lost and killing her is an acceptable death of an enemy combatant. Prior to that uniform going on, killing him would be murder and a war crime.

I wonder how much my world view has been modified by the Cold War US propaganda machine and the realities of the Nam.

[batffink]

"Now, I learn that my English friends have a different version of history as well."

You have more than one English friend?

On a completely different subject. I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, that the decoration Medal of Honor should not officially be referred to as the Congressional Medal of Honor. Am I correct?

Believe me, I cast no aspersions on the Award. Heroism speaks the same language no matter what nationality.

[HRH1948]

Originally Posted by batffink

"Now, I learn that my English friends have a different version of history as well."

You have more than one English friend?

On a completely different subject. I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, that the decoration Medal of Honor should not officially be referred to as the Congressional Medal of Honor. Am I correct?

Believe me, I cast no aspersions on the Award. Heroism speaks the same language no matter what nationality.

First point well taken my Tasmanian friend.

The Congressional Medal of Honor is presented by the president in the name of the congress. In the United States Code, the award is referred to as both the "Medal of Honor" and the "Congressional Medal of Honor". Back in the day in my military unit, we always referred to it as the "Congressional Medal of Honor". We had a recipient on base and it was always a point of universal pride to watch every enlisted man and officer salute him as he went about his duties on base.

[FuckingRotter]

HRH, being the son of a naval commando, and the grandson of a couple that lived through the blitz in Londons East End, the memory of WWII is etched on my mind. I am from a generation that can only imagine the horror that was recounted so vividly. It wouldn't hurt you to read up on the war from the perspectives of others.

Sure, the Empires efforts against Japan were an abject failure, but that does not take away from the bravery of those that fought. As a Wehrmacht officer accepting the surrender of a British battalion prior to Alamein put it "you have fought like lions, but have been led by donkeys". This huge defeat led to what the British 8th army laughingly called the Gazala Stakes, a huge and very hasty retreat, that left a unit of New Zealanders in charge at a tiny railway station in the middle of nowhere. They held that railway, Montgomerys army came rushing back, and so the undersupplied Germans began to experience what they had never experienced before. An arse kicking. That arse kicking lasted four years, and ended in Innsbruck and Berlin. By the end of it, they'd had their arses kicked by Britishers, Aussies, Yugoslavians, Septics, Russians, Poles, French (spits), and even quite a few of their own people. There were even Puerto Ricans fighting in the mountain border regions between Italy and France, against a token unit of Japanese soldiers sent as a good will gesture. Can you imagine anything more fucking bizarre than that?

How about the spotting of a Swiss naval vessel in the Mediterranean?

[HRH1948]

Originally Posted by FuckingRotter

HRH, being the son of a naval commando, and the grandson of a couple that lived through the blitz in Londons East End, the memory of WWII is etched on my mind. I am from a generation that can only imagine the horror that was recounted so vividly. It wouldn't hurt you to read up on the war from the perspectives of others.

Sure, the Empires efforts against Japan were an abject failure, but that does not take away from the bravery of those that fought. As a Wehrmacht officer accepting the surrender of a British battalion prior to Alamein put it "you have fought like lions, but have been led by donkeys". This huge defeat led to what the British 8th army laughingly called the Gazala Stakes, a huge and very hasty retreat, that left a unit of New Zealanders in charge at a tiny railway station in the middle of nowhere. They held that railway, Montgomerys army came rushing back, and so the undersupplied Germans began to experience what they had never experienced before. An arse kicking. That arse kicking lasted four years, and ended in Innsbruck and Berlin. By the end of it, they'd had their arses kicked by Britishers, Aussies, Yugoslavians, Septics, Russians, Poles, French (spits), and even quite a few of their own people. There were even Puerto Ricans fighting in the mountain border regions between Italy and France, against a token unit of Japanese soldiers sent as a good will gesture. Can you imagine anything more fucking bizarre than that?

How about the spotting of a Swiss naval vessel in the Mediterranean?

I bought a used copy of "Nine Rivers From Jordan" that was published in 1955. You might check out, The Last Battle: When U.S. and German Soldiers Joined Forces in the Waning Hours of World War II in Europe.

Yes, it was indeed a World War.

I have learned that if a veteran spent the war behind a desk in New Jersey suffering an occasional paper cut, he honestly believes that he was integral to the war effort. If he was ever in harm's way, he's an unsung hero. If he was wounded or a friend was killed, he was a real hero. And, if any of these guys write a book, he won the war. It is a universal truth that crosses all borders and nationalities. Everyone amplifies the importance of their role, their unit's role and their nation's role in any conflict.

Search as I may, I have come up blank regarding Tito ever leaving Yugoslavia or having anything to do with destroying a Nazi railroad car repair crane. Everything I read supports my original opinion that he was no more than a self serving opportunistic communist dictator.

During World War II, the US supplied 100% of Allied oil needs and millions of tons of Victory ships that carried everything from corned beef to tuna and from tanks to jeeps to England. Bengal was suffering a drought and a massive famine from 1940 to 1943. Churchill wondered why Gandhi hadn't starved. No food was leaving India in route to England. The US 7th Army Air Force was in India. Seriously, what was being moved through the Suez that was so important? Was each British soldier issued a Kukri?

[FuckingRotter]

Australians and New Zealanders were moving through Suez, and British soldiers heading the other way.

Regarding Tito, I never wrote that he left Yugoslavia. The crane went to him. I really wish I could remember the American soldier who wrote the book about his time with the French resistance. The chapter that mentioned Tito concerned a maverick resistance fighter that derailed a troop train. He then hijacked a further three trains, dismounted the civilian passengers and crew, and sent them piling in to the derailed train. This unit then planned to blow up the crane that had to come to remove the wreckage. Their efforts were thwarted at every turn.

Apparently, when the crane was subsequently sent to Yugoslavia, the partizans there had more luck.

[somedude]

There was no one nation, person, weapon, event or even battle that won the Second World War and especially not the European/Mediterranean/North African/North Atlantic Theater! Each of the Big Three (The United States, The United Kingdom and the Commonwealth and the U.S.S.R.) contributed vast amounts of blood and treasure to the war to defeat the Axis with the Soviets defeating the vast majority of the German Army on the ground and the US and UK/Commonwealth defeating the majority of German Naval and Air forces. US industrial and military might was key to defeating the Axis and the Soviet Great Patriotic War against the Nazis and their allies was a struggle in scale and level of bloodshed that made the US or UK war experience seem like child's play. Of course the UK and Commonwealth contributed mightily to the war and stood defiantly alone against the German/Axis juggernaut for around a year fighting like hell in the Battle of Britain and the Battle of the North Atlantic and in the Mediterranean and North Africa with the US pouring Lend Lease supplies into their effort and even before declared war, US naval forces escorted convoys in the North Atlantic and even lost lives against German U-Boats. Then Hitler and the Nazis were stupid enough to attack the U.S.S.R. while still fighting the UK/Commonwealth on multiple fronts and when the Japanese attacked the United States Pacific Territories and started the Pacific War Germany declared war on the US very stupidly, most likely because of US Lend Lease support for Britain. Then the Big Three and all their allies and the resistance movements throughout Nazi Occupied Europe spent the next 3+ years fighting and dying to defeat the Axis in a combined effort where every nation and person that took up arms did their part to defeat the Nazis!

[batffink]

During World War II, the US supplied 100% of Allied oil needs and millions of tons of Victory ships that carried everything from corned beef to tuna and from tanks to jeeps to England.

Quite true my old fruit. but you didn't do it out of the kindness of your hearts. We were still paying for it long after the war ended.