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Old 01-12-2011, 11:50 PM   #21
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Lets look at things from the beginning. Why was the Second Amendment enacted? So that white people can shoot the Indians. Then so that white people could shoot black people. Now the Mexicans are the problem.
I'm not sure where you are from or what your background is, but you need to read up on history a bit. The Second Amendment was put in place to defend America from threats such as the British or the French. It was the Militia that greatly contributed to America winning its independence. It had nothing to do with shooting Native Americans. It was put in place so that newly formed federal government had the ability to defend itself against very powerful and formidable enemies from abroad.

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Gun culture doesn't really exist, it is in fact a culture of violence. America was created through violence, expanded with violence, grown by violence and today it holds onto what it attained through violence, weather threatened or acted upon. Violence is not just socially acceptable, but even celebrated.
I'd be hard pressed to find that there is a single part of the world that was not created or expanded through violence. Maybe Antarctica? History shows that violence was the basis of every civilization that ever rose. Doesn't make it right, but doesn't make it an attack point either.

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They say criminals will be the only ones that have guns. Are they unarmed today? But they say the public is also armed, so it makes them safe. HOW? Does an M16 stop a bullet from a Beretta? Think about what happens when an armed criminal breaks into a house. If he encounters an unarmed tenant, he has to choose between 10 years in prison and a life in prison. And when he encounters an armed tenant, the criminal has to choose between killing or being killed. Oh, but it's really not the problem in him being a criminal, since we know that 'criminal' is just a code word for a n*****.
I don't see too many people running around with M16s in the part of the world I live in. I do know that the crime rate in my city and my state is very low and the reason is that criminals here know that they have a very real chance of being on the wrong end of the gun should they decide to break the law. It almost seems that you are trying to some how justify someone being a criminal here. I'll ignore your racial statement here since you seem to somehow have problems with people of race.

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The so called freedom through guns? I can see how a redneck could believe that shotguns and automatic rifles will keep the tank and jet fighter armed government at bay. Oh hold on, it's not really to keep the government at bay but the wrong people out of the government. All those liberals and civil rights campaigners better not think about enforcing equal rights around here or we'll give 'em the wrong end of the 12 gauge, yeehaa!
As I said earlier I know nothing about you or your background. But is seems here that you toss the "redneck" title around with as much abandon and disrespect as you do the "n*****" (sic) word. You're just trying to throw some gas on the fire with these statements. Guess that is why they call this the rowdy room. If you have a point to make here it is lost on me.
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Old 01-13-2011, 04:40 AM   #22
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No, I am not kidding. I'm saying it like it is.

I do not see these people as being conservatives. I think they are much further to the right from that. I am not calling names in lack of argument, I'm calling names because they fit the bearers.

And if you are capable to get past what you see as a personal insult to yourself, you would see my argument is logic and common sense, and that I went through three quarters of a post without name calling.
This part of my post is obviously something you cannot handle, so you decide to focus on the name calling, as I'm sure you will do in response to this post as well, because that is what you CAN deal with.
Since my response to you would be much the same as, Justmetoo, I will not waste my key strokes, for he said it very elegantly, he is obviously one of those educated, intelligent, debaters I was referring to.. Very well said, Justmetoo..
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Old 01-13-2011, 11:23 AM   #23
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Menace, I just read your first response and my jaw hit the floor.

You see America as a nation of people hell-bent on killing people of color? Really? And you live ... where? Oh, yes, that's right. South Africa. That bastion of racial equality.

Menace, please tell me that your words were meant solely to stir things up and not a reflection of how you really feel. I've known you a long time and I would hate think I was so wrong.
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Old 01-13-2011, 01:14 PM   #24
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I'm not sure where you are from or what your background is, but you need to read up on history a bit. The Second Amendment was put in place to defend America from threats such as the British or the French. It was the Militia that greatly contributed to America winning its independence. It had nothing to do with shooting Native Americans. It was put in place so that newly formed federal government had the ability to defend itself against very powerful and formidable enemies from abroad.
It would seem that you my friend are the one lacking in historical lessons. Militia had very little to do with winning the War of Independence. The troops George Washington brought out of Valley Forge won the war, and even that with tremendous help from France and Spain. Every time the militia was engaged in great number, Americans lost battles. Only exceptions were Kings Mountain where the militia fought forces equal to them in quality, and the Cowpens, where it was the tactical genius of Daniel Morgan that compensated for the militia's weakness.
In later years, it always was the professional soldier that won the day for Lady Liberty, while American militia played the same part as all other militia formations throughout history, that of tavern heroes and war criminals.

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I'd be hard pressed to find that there is a single part of the world that was not created or expanded through violence. Maybe Antarctica? History shows that violence was the basis of every civilization that ever rose. Doesn't make it right, but doesn't make it an attack point either.
No argument. I sometimes get the feeling though that some Americans look upon this fact with pride.

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I don't see too many people running around with M16s in the part of the world I live in. I do know that the crime rate in my city and my state is very low and the reason is that criminals here know that they have a very real chance of being on the wrong end of the gun should they decide to break the law. It almost seems that you are trying to some how justify someone being a criminal here. I'll ignore your racial statement here since you seem to somehow have problems with people of race.
The M16 was a metaphor, I'll go on a limb and assume you know what those are. The point is, offensive weapons offer only the illusion of protection, not actual protection. People here in South Africa are armed to the teeth, but that hasn't lowered the crime rate.
And where did you get that I'm defending criminals? If it's because I'm anti-racist, then I think you just made my point for me.
And I'll bet that the low crime figures in your town and state have jack shit to do with guns and everything to do with social equality and an effective justice system, the real cures for crime.

But I will say that an armed criminal scares me much less than a law abiding citizen with a gun.

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As I said earlier I know nothing about you or your background. But is seems here that you toss the "redneck" title around with as much abandon and disrespect as you do the "n*****" (sic) word. You're just trying to throw some gas on the fire with these statements. Guess that is why they call this the rowdy room. If you have a point to make here it is lost on me.
I think you got my point perfectly, but are too afraid to argue against it.
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Old 01-13-2011, 02:18 PM   #25
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Menace, I just read your first response and my jaw hit the floor.

You see America as a nation of people hell-bent on killing people of color? Really? And you live ... where? Oh, yes, that's right. South Africa. That bastion of racial equality.

Menace, please tell me that your words were meant solely to stir things up and not a reflection of how you really feel. I've known you a long time and I would hate think I was so wrong.
No I do not. I see the pro gunners like that. I also know that the protest held in Washington after and against the Tea Parties' one was far greater in size and that less than half Americans are opposed to gun control so my opinion on America as a whole is a positive one.
I do however believe that the root cause and driving force behind the bad sides of America is racism.

If anything, living in South Africa has honed me to recognize it more easily.

The locals here invest incredible amounts in security, living in prison of their own making but most don't use the PC term 'criminals', but flat out shamelessly admit it's keep out the blacks. Yep, South Africa is unique in the fact that the word 'racist' is spoken not with repulsion but with pride. The white kids go to expensive private schools because the government schools are for 'coloreds', and as a result of the two a high value is put on money, singing odes to capitalism and going in upheaval at the very mention of redistribution of wealth; Money is the last thing they have to keep them away from those "inferior", who in the time I have spent here have not found to be the least bit different to those "superior".

When you speak your mind as often as I do, you make a lot of enemies and lose even more friends. Neither will deter me from this habit, but I hope you're not one of the friends I will lose.
True though, I was upset to see the pro gun lobby of RB not being put into their place in an effective manner, so I decided to hit them where it hurts: in the real truth. I was actually worried that I nailed it so well they all ran for the high ground, but I'm overjoyed to see some have the guts to duke it out.
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:49 PM   #26
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My opion not that its worth much is if someone wants to get a gun they will get one. Sure America might be easier than some, but that fact did not guaranty a shooting. I live in uk, stabbing is rife they ban carrying knives, but the stabbing continues. I think we should stop looking for an easy scapegoat and work on the issue. Banning is not the answer.
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Old 01-13-2011, 06:14 PM   #27
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It would seem that you my friend are the one lacking in historical lessons. Militia had very little to do with winning the War of Independence. The troops George Washington brought out of Valley Forge won the war, and even that with tremendous help from France and Spain. Every time the militia was engaged in great number, Americans lost battles. Only exceptions were Kings Mountain where the militia fought forces equal to them in quality, and the Cowpens, where it was the tactical genius of Daniel Morgan that compensated for the militia's weakness.
Although your American history is a little better in this post than in your last, you have down played the role of the Militia to fit your anti gun opinion, the truth is..
American Militia lacked the training and discipline of soldiers with more experience, but were more numerous and could overwhelm regular troops, as at the battles of Concord, Bennington and Saratoga, and the siege of Boston proved.

Seeking to coordinate military efforts, the Continental Congress established (on paper) a regular army in June 1775, and appointed George Washington as commander-in-chief. The development of the Continental Army was always a work in progress, and Washington used both his regulars and state militia throughout the war.

France's government secretly provided supplies, ammunition and weapons to the revolutionaries starting in 1776, they did not openly enter the war until the Continentals' capture of a British army in 1777, that led France to openly enter the war in early 1778, which evened the military strength with Britain.

Yes, Daniel Morgan was a tactical genius, born in New Jersey. The Continental Congress called for the formation of 10 rifle companies from the middle colonies to support the Siege of Boston, Morgan recruited 96 Militia men in 10 days, an outstanding group of marksmen nicknamed "Morgan's Riflemen." and marched them to Massachusetts for the Siege of Boston. He was a great American that contributed greatly throughout America's war of Independence.

So your down play of the Militia's contribution and success in the war for Independence is just incorrect.

There are other reasons for the right to bear arms other than enabling the people to organize a militia system, such as.. Deterring our government from becoming an totalitarian government, we yanks do not want our government to forget they serve us, not us them.

The chief reason America has remained a free country is the widespread private ownership of firearms. Individual ownership of guns made the American Revolution possible. The principal purpose of the Second Amendment was to maintain our freedom from government. It is an insult to our heritage to imply that the Founding Fathers wrote the Second Amendment just to protect deer hunters.

The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution states: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." Polls show that up to 80% of the public believe citizens have a constitutional right to own guns.

* George Mason: "To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."

* Richard Henry Lee: "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."


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And where did you get that I'm defending criminals? If it's because I'm anti-racist, then I think you just made my point for me.
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Lets look at things from the beginning. Why was the Second Amendment enacted? So that white people can shoot the Indians. Then so that white people could shoot black people. Now the Mexicans are the problem.
I take you as anti-white, and that is racist.


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Think about what happens when an armed criminal breaks into a house. If he encounters an unarmed tenant, he has to choose between 10 years in prison and a life in prison. And when he encounters an armed tenant, the criminal has to choose between killing or being killed.
Oh, but it's really not the problem in him being a criminal, since we know that 'criminal' is just a code word for a n*****.
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But I will say that an armed criminal scares me much less than a law abiding citizen with a gun.
Those are some of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard coming from an adult.

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Old 01-13-2011, 06:50 PM   #28
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I honestly don't think there is a good solution to this problem, and people from both sides of the fence will always disagree.

I must side with those who think that banning guns will only hurt law abiding citizens, because lets be serious. Criminals who want a weapon will always find a way to buy them, and most that do have very unsavory reasons for wanting it. The only ones who will be barred from purchasing a weapon will be those who follow the letter of the law.

My husband and I personally own 3 rifles, one of them a semi-automatic. The only way we would ever use them against another person was to protect ourselves if someone ever broke into our home and threatened our lives. I absolutely believe that we have every right to own and keep our weapons, as long as we are educated in how to use them.
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Old 01-13-2011, 11:23 PM   #29
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Let me pose a question to all you gun banning left wingers out there. What if he got in his pickup truck and plowed down 20 people killing 6. When do we ban the cars?

You see if you think Guns are the problem your not thinking deep enough about the situation.

As a long time member of the military. I can say with great confidence that if a madman is intent of killing/terror & destruction you have no way to stop him. No matter how much material you ban or items you make illegal.
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Old 01-14-2011, 12:20 AM   #30
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Let me pose a question to all you gun banning left wingers out there. What if he got in his pickup truck and plowed down 20 people killing 6. When do we ban the cars?

You see if you think Guns are the problem your not thinking deep enough about the situation.

As a long time member of the military. I can say with great confidence that if a madman is intent of killing/terror & destruction you have no way to stop him. No matter how much material you ban or items you make illegal.
You would call me a left-winger probably but just to educate you I do not support further gun contol or any more nanny government. We've had enough freedom taken away by do-gooder politicians who only want people to think they're saving us from evil.
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Old 01-14-2011, 12:23 AM   #31
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You really hit the jackpot here Batffink. Well done!
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Old 01-14-2011, 07:12 AM   #32
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Shucks, 'tain't nuttin'.

I've just found out I'm a left winger. (Or should that be left whinger?)
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Old 01-14-2011, 08:54 AM   #33
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Apparently some nut is now blaming this kill spree on Satan and heavy metal music.

So.... If we ban guns, Ozzy Osborne, God, Satan, bleeding hearted liberals and stuck in the mud conservatives there will be nothing left to kill for right? Or we could just outlaw politicians save us the job of killing the innocent in the process of executing the guilty....

Just a thought, the USA is a nation of hundreds of millions, with a virtual civil war being held by gangsters to the south and a vast ungovernable border to the north. You could out law guns but that will only encourage more people to smuggle them. Where did booze come from during prohibition? Where did refusniks go to during Vietnam?

All gun control will achieve is to criminalise gun owners, that is all.
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Old 01-14-2011, 02:48 PM   #34
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Although your American history is a little better in this post than in your last, you have down played the role of the Militia to fit your anti gun opinion, the truth is..
American Militia lacked the training and discipline of soldiers with more experience, but were more numerous and could overwhelm regular troops, as at the battles of Concord, Bennington and Saratoga, and the siege of Boston proved.
That's just it. In order to overcome regulars, the militia needed significant numerical superiority, which any band of conscripts with two weeks training could do. So what advantage does their experience with firearms give them?

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There are other reasons for the right to bear arms other than enabling the people to organize a militia system, such as.. Deterring our government from becoming an totalitarian government, we yanks do not want our government to forget they serve us, not us them.

The chief reason America has remained a free country is the widespread private ownership of firearms. Individual ownership of guns made the American Revolution possible. The principal purpose of the Second Amendment was to maintain our freedom from government. It is an insult to our heritage to imply that the Founding Fathers wrote the Second Amendment just to protect deer hunters.

The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution states: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." Polls show that up to 80% of the public believe citizens have a constitutional right to own guns.

* George Mason: "To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."

* Richard Henry Lee: "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
Do you understand how totalitarian systems even work? It's not the black and white picture of the evil tyrant single handedly enslaving his subjects. Totalitarian systems require a wide spread network of people that benefit from the system and are keen to maintain it.

Take a look at North Korea. In a country of 24 million, 1.5 million are soldiers. That means every fifth man of fighting age carries an assault rifle, making North Koreans the most heavily armed nation in the world. By your standards, that country is the epitome of democracy

And look at all the other examples where weapons empowered people to stand up to their governments: Italy 1922, 40 000 freedom fighters under the great Benito Mussolini stand up against oppression; Chile 1973, a small band of patriots overthrow the disastrously ineffective president and open a chapter of unprecedented freedom; Again in 1922, he famous expert on moral Eamon De Valera started the Irish civil war with the glorious sentence: "The majority have no right to do wrong!" after he lost the vote.

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I take you as anti-white, and that is racist.
I am not anti white, just against racial policies. And in the West, those come from white people. That's not to say these were the only ones in the world. China has a long history of racial laws, Japan not far behind.
Black people, Native American...all can also be racist, but due to lack of economic power have not enforced their racism in forms of laws.
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Old 01-14-2011, 07:22 PM   #35
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That's just it. In order to overcome regulars, the militia needed significant numerical superiority, which any band of conscripts with two weeks training could do. So what advantage does their experience with firearms give them?
Britain’s military inadequacies and American guerrilla tactics accounted for some of Britain’s defeats during the war. There was an enormous number of patriots ready to fight for independence, their poor military skills meant they were incapable of winning conventional battles however they could occupy strong points and settlements and could use guerrilla tactics. British casualties were much higher then the rebels as the British found themselves constantly ambushed by small forces in the mountains and on bridges. The Americans lost most of the early battles but the British kept letting Washington escape and in 1777 when the Americans finally won a battle at Saratoga the British gave up the offensive in the North. One could say that if Burgoyne hadn’t let Washington escape at Brandywine or hadn’t walked into heavy rebel resistance in Saratoga, France and Spain wouldn’t have joined in the war and the British would have won.

A major weakness of the British cause was their lack of a clear strategy or objective. The Patriots were transparent in their aims; the quest for independence was without compromise or negotiation, the failure of British generals to understand this at the beginning of the conflict meant that they had insufficient troops and resources at their disposal and this certainly contributed to British defeat. Indecision and unclear strategy also had a damaging affect on morale, lack of confidence in the British cause spread to the highest ranks; Captain James Murray wrote in a letter home that he sincerely wished it was all over; “a barbarous business in a barbarous country ” and if Lord Montgomery’s theory that morale is the single greatest factor in war is to be believed, these sorts of feelings amongst the troops and officers were of serious concern. The American rebels on the other hand had everything to win by victory and everything to loose by defeat, where as the British could survive with or without the exploitation of the colonies.

But that is enough of the history lessons, you should now get the point why we won our war of independence.

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Do you understand how totalitarian systems even work? It's not the black and white picture of the evil tyrant single handedly enslaving his subjects. Totalitarian systems require a wide spread network of people that benefit from the system and are keen to maintain it.
Let me explain what Government system we hard working Americans don't want, and that system is that of the far far left that is in office today in America who lean towards a socialist government. This reduces individual freedom and productivity by taxing the working people more to pay for social programs. Programs are fine. But the government has bankrupted social security and Medicare. In fact, only 21 cents of each dollar paid in to SS actually reaches a retired recipient. Government doesn't manage finances well, but there are those far left Liberals who want our governments to become mom and dad, and are willing to offer complete control to them, and there are those of us who would rather pull our own weight and keep government out of our personal lives.

So when I use the term of "totalitarian government" I mean any system of Government where the individual is subordinated to the state, and opposing political expression is suppressed in an attempt to keep the populace in check. And I am not talking about the moderate "Blue Dog" or "Lunch Box" Democrat, for I believe most of them would agree with me.

But we have steered off the subject of the banning of fire arms here in the US, and I would like to point out that congresswoman Gabby Giffords is a long time gun owner.

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I am not anti white, just against racial policies. And in the West, those come from white people.
You mean in the USA where we elected a Biracial President? In America you can be anything you want to be regardless of the color of your skin, if you're willing to work for it.

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Old 01-14-2011, 10:11 PM   #36
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go jwham go!
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:31 AM   #37
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Britain’s military inadequacies and American guerrilla tactics accounted for some of Britain’s defeats during the war. There was an enormous number of patriots ready to fight for independence, their poor military skills meant they were incapable of winning conventional battles however they could occupy strong points and settlements and could use guerrilla tactics. British casualties were much higher then the rebels as the British found themselves constantly ambushed by small forces in the mountains and on bridges. The Americans lost most of the early battles but the British kept letting Washington escape and in 1777 when the Americans finally won a battle at Saratoga the British gave up the offensive in the North. One could say that if Burgoyne hadn’t let Washington escape at Brandywine or hadn’t walked into heavy rebel resistance in Saratoga, France and Spain wouldn’t have joined in the war and the British would have won.

A major weakness of the British cause was their lack of a clear strategy or objective. The Patriots were transparent in their aims; the quest for independence was without compromise or negotiation, the failure of British generals to understand this at the beginning of the conflict meant that they had insufficient troops and resources at their disposal and this certainly contributed to British defeat. Indecision and unclear strategy also had a damaging affect on morale, lack of confidence in the British cause spread to the highest ranks; Captain James Murray wrote in a letter home that he sincerely wished it was all over; “a barbarous business in a barbarous country ” and if Lord Montgomery’s theory that morale is the single greatest factor in war is to be believed, these sorts of feelings amongst the troops and officers were of serious concern. The American rebels on the other hand had everything to win by victory and everything to loose by defeat, where as the British could survive with or without the exploitation of the colonies.

But that is enough of the history lessons, you should now get the point why we won our war of independence.
I got that before, but that was not the point. All this the militia did, is the same that Vietcong or the Yugoslav partisans did, and they did not have weapons when their countries were occupied. Armed populace makes it cheaper to start a guerrilla warfare, but that's about the only benefit, and you have not convinced me otherwise.

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Let me explain what Government system we hard working Americans don't want, and that system is that of the far far left that is in office today in America who lean towards a socialist government. This reduces individual freedom and productivity by taxing the working people more to pay for social programs.
So now that you don't like the majorities choice, you are going to start and armed rebellion, overthrow the the government, hang the president and set up a fascist regime? I see you've already applied for the position of Fearless Leader.

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Programs are fine. But the government has bankrupted social security and Medicare. In fact, only 21 cents of each dollar paid in to SS actually reaches a retired recipient. Government doesn't manage finances well, but there are those far left Liberals who want our governments to become mom and dad, and are willing to offer complete control to them, and there are those of us who would rather pull our own weight and keep government out of our personal lives.
That makes about as much sense as scrapping a car because of a flat tire.

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So when I use the term of "totalitarian government" I mean any system of Government where the individual is subordinated to the state, and opposing political expression is suppressed in an attempt to keep the populace in check. And I am not talking about the moderate "Blue Dog" or "Lunch Box" Democrat, for I believe most of them would agree with me.

But we have steered off the subject of the banning of fire arms here in the US, and I would like to point out that congresswoman Gabby Giffords is a long time gun owner.
I have lived in a totalitarian system, and therefore can tell you flat out that you're talking shit! Even the state you describe here doesn't come close to what I've been through, much less the "oppressive regime" you live under now.

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You mean in the USA where we elected a Biracial President? In America you can be anything you want to be regardless of the color of your skin, if you're willing to work for it.
Wow, you elected the first non-white president in a land where white people have lived for only 400 years? Now that's minority action!
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Old 01-15-2011, 10:12 AM   #38
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I got that before, but that was not the point. All this the militia did, is the same that Vietcong or the Yugoslav partisans did, and they did not have weapons when their countries were occupied. Armed populace makes it cheaper to start a guerrilla warfare, but that's about the only benefit, and you have not convinced me otherwise.
Every insurrection uses the weaponry at hand, and as President Obama said, "You don't take a knife to a gun fight"

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So now that you don't like the majorities choice, you are going to start and armed rebellion, overthrow the the government, hang the president and set up a fascist regime? I see you've already applied for the position of Fearless Leader.
He had a catchy slogan, and great writers of his speeches that swayed the undereducated masses and he had lots and lots of money to buy the election, plus the mainstream media helped him by not reporting anything negative, unless it was about McCain or Palin. Among Democrats, 85 percent approve, while 84 percent of Republicans disapprove, along with 46 percent of independent voters.

But actually I think President Obama is starting to show great promise now that he is starting to lean towards the center and bailing out on his far left socialist buddies. He now realizes that the majority of Americans do not lean to the far left or the extreme right, but rather right down the center. The President said he's “willing to work with anyone of either party who’s got a good idea and the commitment to see it through.” and when he signed an $858 billion bill extending for two years the Bush-era tax cuts for all income levels he shown that he meant what he said, much to the dislike of the far left socialist.

I think Obama is an intelligent, articulate man that has the ability to be a good leader as long as he continues to turn his back on the far left socialist in his party, (which in reality is only 20% of the democratic party) and continues to listen to the American people.

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That makes about as much sense as scrapping a car because of a flat tire.
Or perhaps it just went over your head.

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I have lived in a totalitarian system, and therefore can tell you flat out that you're talking shit! Even the state you describe here doesn't come close to what I've been through, much less the "oppressive regime" you live under now.
South Africa's Apartheid was a system of legal racial segregation enforced by the National Party government, under which the rights of the majority none-white inhabitants were curtailed, and minority rule by white people was maintained, this will happen when good people are afraid to act and do nothing.

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Wow, you elected the first non-white president in a land where white people have lived for only 400 years? Now that's minority action!
America gained Independence in 1783. so technically 228 years. 400 years ago the year would have been 1611, In 1611, a mutiny during an attempt to find the Northwest Passage left Henry Hudson adrift on what is now Hudson Bay, never to be heard from again.

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Old 01-15-2011, 11:18 AM   #39
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A good thread. I have read the posts and there really isnt much I can add but perhaps I can a put in a comment or two

Yes the 2nd amendment was written at a time in our history when the nation needed an armed citizenrey to help defend it, but that time has long passed. I am not saying it should be done away with, but there should be tighter limits on who has access to gus, especially hand guns. AND the accrutrement that go along with them... like the 30 round clips this nut was carrying.

The people at the event subdued him as he was changing magz... if the guy had had only a 10 or 12 round mag far fewer people would have been killed and wounded. Perhaps that little angel who he killed would still be alive. My heart is breaking over her death. If there is anyone here who hasnt read about her, please do. This was a very special child, she would have made a difference in the world and we are all the poorer for her passing.

The ban on assualt weapons should never have been allowed to lapse. The goddamned republican congress of 2004 is directly to blame for this, and indirectly to blame for the magnitude of the trajedy this past Saturday. Had that ban NOT been allowed to lapse the 30 round magz would STILL be illegal. Yet another example of how Bush and the Republicans fucked America.

Now before my good republican friends here decide to lynch me let me say this. There are many great republicians, both in and out of government. The country needs them, needs their spirit, their drive, their wisdom. But something happened to the Republican Party during the first decade of this new century. (yes I am aware 9/11 happened but that doest excuse it, though it HAS become a cover for all sorts of shady republican deals)

These are NOT Reagan's Republicans, they are something else. I am a Reagan Republican, was proud to be one, am still proud to be one. These days though, I look at what the party has become and I cringe.

There are many people in this country who are on the verge of violence. Just look at the last election, there were attacks, candidates were haressed and threatened, black members of congress were spat apon on the very steps of the capital, party offices were vandilized, it was a horrible election. Not because of the outcome, but because of the attitudes and actions that were prevelent.

This country has serious problems, and it needs serious people from ALL political leanings to come together and solve them. We need another Reagan, and I dont care what party he or she comes from. Someone who can shame us, challenge us, and make us put aside our differences and acknowledege our commonalities. Someone to remind us that we are ALL in this together and it's going to take the efforts of all of us to move forward.

*Looks at his post* Damn, I had no intention of writing this much. HRH, my conservitive friend, lets go grab a beer and talk about better days.
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Old 01-15-2011, 12:14 PM   #40
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Yes the 2nd amendment was written at a time in our history when the nation needed an armed citizenrey to help defend it, but that time has long passed. I am not saying it should be done away with, but there should be tighter limits on who has access to gus, especially hand guns. AND the accrutrement that go along with them... like the 30 round clips this nut was carrying.
I agree 100 percent to putting tighter limits on getting a handguns. I see no reason why there couldn't be a 30 wait period during which time a far more thorough background check could be performed. I know in this day and age the instant gratification folks would be pissed but I also know that if I want to purchase certain items I have to wait sometimes. I don't see many reasons where a legit gun owner would object to this. Maybe that's just me though.

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The ban on assualt weapons should never have been allowed to lapse. The goddamned republican congress of 2004 is directly to blame for this, and indirectly to blame for the magnitude of the trajedy this past Saturday. Had that ban NOT been allowed to lapse the 30 round magz would STILL be illegal. Yet another example of how Bush and the Republicans fucked America.
I consider myself to be a gun enthusiast. I see no reason and have no desire to own an assault rifle. I do question your comment though about the 30 round mag. I'm not sure that was banned before. But you are correct in that ban should never have been revoked.

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Now before my good republican friends here decide to lynch me let me say this. There are many great republicians, both in and out of government. The country needs them, needs their spirit, their drive, their wisdom. But something happened to the Republican Party during the first decade of this new century. (yes I am aware 9/11 happened but that doest excuse it, though it HAS become a cover for all sorts of shady republican deals)

These are NOT Reagan's Republicans, they are something else. I am a Reagan Republican, was proud to be one, am still proud to be one. These days though, I look at what the party has become and I cringe.
Not a lot of people make the distinction between a Reagan Republican and what the party as turned in to. 30 years ago I found it very easy to proclaim myself a Republican. It is far harder these days. Actually, I tell most people now that I am far more Libertarian than anything else.

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This country has serious problems, and it needs serious people from ALL political leanings to come together and solve them. We need another Reagan, and I dont care what party he or she comes from. Someone who can shame us, challenge us, and make us put aside our differences and acknowledege our commonalities. Someone to remind us that we are ALL in this together and it's going to take the efforts of all of us to move forward.
I hope that people learn from this tragedy and move forward in a far more united way. However after hearing what some of the upper morons are saying I am sad that deep in my heart I know that will not happen. People are so unwilling to compromise on details that shot down the best of ideas. It's not my generation that is going to suffer from this. It's going to be my kids and future grand-kids that are going to pay the price.

Some day they will look back on this generation and wonder how on earth we managed to fuck everything up as badly as we did. I'm not sure what I will tell them either. Was it was because we became so self centered and greedy? Was it because we wanted everything, right now? I don't know. I just know that I look around and don't like what I see.
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