Don't ask. Don't tell.

[BTN]

whichisgay.jpg

Discuss.

[whyaskwhy]

The one in the middle.Haha! (Sorry...this is the rowdy room.Right?)
Actually I don't care! Have friends who are gay...Had bosses and co workers who were gay too.
"People are people so,why can it be that you and I should get along so awfully?" Depeche Mode.
I won't say I get the gay thing.Women are just too perfect to not want.(actually,I get the lesbian thing.LOL!) And I don't really think it's natural due to sex being animals way to procreate and 2 homosexuals can't procreate (man or woman).But it should be there choice to live with and I think the real problem is with the other soldiers that are uncomfortable not the gay making them feel that way.I don't like "don't ask,don't tell" though...It puts a roadblock up in the way of the homosexual soldiers freedom of expression and prevents the heterosexual soldier who is uncomfortable from being fully informed...Basically,it just adds tension to an already tense situation.

[snarkopo]

All I see is Name: whichisgay.jpg Views: 21 Size: 89.5 KB.

No actual image. But you're gay anyway. All of you. Just a bunch of gay people! Having a gay old time! So there! gay gay gay.

Hey is juane yellow? I forget my French.

[Lil-Mac]

My biggest problem with gays in military is barracks life. I know this isnt the PC stance but as a vet who lived for years in the barracks I know that this can be a problem. Back when I was in, and granted this was twenty years ago a gay in the barracks was simply not tolerated. In fact it was down right dangerous to be a gay in the military back then as most of the troops would just as soon stomp the shit outta you as look at you.

By and large most military men come from conservitive backgrounds, they come from places and families that dont really believe in gay rights or just pay them lip service. Before I get flamed yes I know there are exceptions... I am talking as a general rule, it's not 100 percent hard and fast.

Yes I know there are gays in the military, yes I know there have always been and will always be gays in the military, and yes I know that the vast majority of them have done their jobs and done it well. I also know that the vast majority of them have kept their mouths shut and minded their own business.

Do gays have a right to serve? Sure they do, all Americans do. Should they serve openly? That's a much tougher question. Maybe social mores have changed enough that it isnt a problem anymore. To be honest though, I dont think so.

Even though my military days are over I spend alot of time with GI's. I spend alot of time on bases and on a gut level I dont think soldiers have changed that much since my day. If the majority of guys in the barracks dont want to be living with, eating with, sleeping with and showering with gays I just dont see that it is right to force them do so.

Our young men (and women) give up so much, endure so much already. Why lay this on them to.

[snarkopo]

I think gays should have equal rights like anyone else but I can't argue with you in this case. Sometimes there's just not a good solution.

[RapeKarenX]

Equal across the board.

[Lil-Mac]

I am all for equality but the military is such a structured environment. You just dont understand it unless you've lived it.

Consider this, in the Army and Marines a squad often lives in one big room, eight or ten men sleeping together (in seperate bunks of course). If one of these guys is openly gay in most cases that is going to present a problem for the rest of the unit. Let's face it, most straight men dont like gay men.

I often hear from my more liberal friends that this fight is really no different than in the 30's and 40's when people were fighting to end segregation in the military, and I admit that the two situations are somewhat similar. I admit that if ordered to do so by the president the military would do it's best to comply with that order. However I worry about what effect this will have on the troops.

I love our troops, deeply and without reservation and anything that disrupts or complicates their lives more than is required by the missions they need to preform needs to be looked at long and hard before it is implimented. DADT isnt perfect, but I thought Clinton's solution was a good middle ground approach. I just dont see a problem with folks keeping their sexual orientation to themselves, keeping their mouths shut and going about their duties. This is what DADT is all about.

[pervipete]

But doesn't it lead them open to blackmail? And why shoud they, 50 years ago the same thing was said about coloured servicemen and guess what, it didn't make the army an less effective did it?

[Lil-Mac]

To address the blackmail question. The simple answer is No, it doesnt. Reason being people arent supposed to ask. Example, someone in the unit is gay and one of the guys finds out somehow. So what. The only real threat he can make is to tell the other guys or a superior. All the gay guy has to do is deny it. Sure the guy is telling a lie but big deal. Actaully under DADT his superiors arent even supposed to ask if the rumor is true. As long as the gay soldier doesnt tell on himself there is really nothing the military can do. To be honest guys in the military tell so many gay jokes and accuse each other of being homosexual all the time that any attempt to "out" someone could very easily be laughed off as a joke.

Now I freely admit this isnt a perfect solution and there may be a time when getting rid of DADT is ok. Heck maybe it is now, just because I think it's too soon doesnt mean it is. All I can do is give my thoughts and feelings.

As far as your other point I get the arguement about comparing this to desegregation all the time, and yes there are some simularities but it is somehow different. Sexuality is a very gut level, viseral thing. Back in the 1949 when the military desegregated whites may not have wanted to live eat or shower with black, but you didnt have to worry about the black guy checking out your ass or looking at your cock and wanting to suck it. To most guys even the thought of that is enough to give them the creeps.

And picture this. You're a straight male, as most GI's are but you walk into the squad room to shoot some pool or watch TV and there is Bob and Joe curled up on the couch holding hands or kissing. Some guys might not mind, most guys would probably shoot them a dirty look and walk out, but some guys will react quite badly in that situation.

I just see alot of un-needed, avoidable trouble. At some point DADT is going to be done away with, I am sure of it. It might be this year, but I think probably not. I would wager that Obama will wait til his second term (if he gets one) or maybe his last year in office this term if winning reelection is unlikely.

Before you condem DADT as discriminatory and unfair remember this. DADT protects gays from hostile, anti-gay soldiers. It protects them both legally, and it protects them from physical and mental abuse in the barracks, and on the job. Like it or not there are some extremely anti-gay troops in the military. You force them to live openly with gays and there is going to be trouble. People are going to get harassed, hurt, maybe even killed. Maybe I am wrong, I hope I am wrong but I think most people, if they put political correctness aside will come to the same conclusion as me.

[BTN]

It was really interesting to read lil-macs responses here. I was actually hoping there was an ex-serviceman/woman here on the board.

I have a live and let live attitude towards most things. I figure if someone is gay, fine, be gay. No harm is done to me in this situation. Taking that idea forward I (in my pinko liberal way) think "why shouldn't the gay fellas risk their lives in military service if they want?" I mean. I have certainly never had a desire to since considering a carrer in the RAF in school. Then Gulf war 1 kicked off and that phase passed. I realised getting shot at by an angry foreginer wasn't my thing. But some are braver than me and should they want to take bigger risks than me then I should be thankful for them being there. their sexual orientation shouldn't be an issue.....or should it?

I see that after reading the posts in this thread that my open-minded and almost idealistic ideas really don't fly too well in the real world of the military. Its a life I've never lived, an environment I have never experienced. This has been quite intructive to me so far.

[carbaski]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most other Western nations already allow out-of-the-closet homosexuals to serve? They don't seem to have any issues with it. America is socially behind in many ways compared to Europe; and this is just the next taboo to be ignored and forgotten.

[kimmy]

socially behind?,i don't think thats it at all,americans are not eurpeons,our forefathers came here because they wanted too be different,i personaly think most guys my age would be very upset being forced to room with a homosexual male,i don't see this ending well,i hope i'm wrong,but i think it will be very bad for the morale of our troops

[justmetoo]

Originally Posted by carbaski

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most other Western nations already allow out-of-the-closet homosexuals to serve? They don't seem to have any issues with it. America is socially behind in many ways compared to Europe; and this is just the next taboo to be ignored and forgotten.

Well, if we had liked how things were run over there, we'd still be a colony

I have a hard time defining what is "behind." I see the problems France is having just getting gas to the pumps today and I'm glad that we are not as "enlightend" as they are. I see the massive social costs the governments are running over there and I'm glad I'm not part of it. I look at the other benefits the workers get and then all of a sudden I know why a Porsche costs what it does.

The bottom line is that there has to be a balance and the posts above have given me a second-hand backing of what my brother, who just got back from Iran, has told me all along.

Besides all of that, there is one thing I have to consider above all else - if I'm taking a shower with a bunch of other guys, the last thing I want to think about is if they are sexually attracted to me. That gives me the creeps and makes me wonder if something like that is to be considered the military over here might just as well go to co-ed showers.

Think about that one for a minute and the outrage it would raise. It kind of puts in in perspective for me.

[kimmy]

well co-ed showers may make the sell of this a lil easier for the troops to take,politics at work,a lil give and take,lol,and a lil something for everyone

[TheOneSolo]

I rate a person by their character, not who they sleep with. I have gay and lesbian friends.

Heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual or asexual... at the end of the day, we are all human. For the record when I say asexual I'm referring to people such as myself who primarily please themselves.

[Memento Mori]

ATTENTION SOLDIERS WHO ARE HOMOPHOBIC: You are government property. You do what the government tells you to. If that means bunking with gay soldier, put on your fucking grown up pants, and do it without bitching. Trust me, the gay soldiers aren't into you. They have their own crowd, and you aren't a member. Go fuck a stripper, and let your fellow soldier do what he wants, asshole. He's not worried who you fuck, but you're worried about what he does with his dick. Who sounds gay now?

[Lil-Mac]

With all due respect Mori... not cool. Things will sort themselves out in time, just like it did with racial intergration. The young men and women who defend our country deserve praise and thanks, not condemnation.

And as far as "putting on their grownup pants" is concerned, they put up with more crap in a day than you do all month. Not to mention the fact that over 6000 have died and nearly 75,000 wounded since 9/11. So unless you have walked in their boots, as I have, then I would suggest that you give them the respect that they have earned.

[Memento Mori]

Did I say all soldiers? A homophobe is a homophobe. Being a hero does not make anyone immune to character faults, no matter what good they do in the world. If they kill as a job choice, than it's obvious they have more important things to do than worry about their bunkmate's sex life. They need to leave that shit in high school and do their job...

[analeyes]

Originally Posted by Lil-Mac

With all due respect Mori... not cool. Things will sort themselves out in time, just like it did with racial intergration. The young men and women who defend our country deserve praise and thanks, not condemnation.

And as far as "putting on their grownup pants" is concerned, they put up with more crap in a day than you do all month. Not to mention the fact that over 6000 have died and nearly 75,000 wounded since 9/11. So unless you have walked in their boots, as I have, then I would suggest that you give them the respect that they have earned.

I thought it was condomnation

[Lil-Mac]

Of course you are correct. We all have charactor faults but that in no way takes away from the fact that these people have chosen to do a job that very few people are willing to do. They put their lives on the line for all of us.

Dont misunderstand me, you have every right to be against DADT. Many are, and you have every right to voice your opinion. All I would ask is that you do so in a way that does not denigrate the troops.

DADT was established as a compromise, everyone knew that one day a final decision on the policy would need to be reached. That day is fast approaching and my feeling is it will be done away with and gays will be allowed to serve openly.

Times change. What was once unspoken becomes the norm... and in the grand scheme of things it all matters not.