Science is a useful but limited tool and basically a religion - Rape Board

tnc4fun · 05-04-2007, 01:18 PM

I thought of how I would present this. There will simply be too many gaps, unless I post so much that the admin will say, "Start your own damn website". I'm not purpoting in any way that I know "THE TRUTH". I only know my own "truth". As Keats said, "Truth is beauty and beauty truth". And, as we all know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. As a matter of fact, the only being I consider to have know the universal truth was humiliated in a public trial, scourged and nailed to a cross. I hope never to be so wildly successful.

The question is, how do we as human beings, think about everything. We use the available instrumentality, our experience and the experience of others. Understanding is limited by the ability to comprehend, the tools and the time we have to devote to it. The things we try to understand usually start with those that effect us most immediately. What happens, however, when we are at a point where we hit that wall. Something that is simply beyond our comprehension. At that point we have faith and belief.

Religion was our first attempt to think about and understand those things in our world that didn't have obvious explanations. The "why" rather than the "who what where and when". Science (literally "knowledge") stems from a desire to ground all things in the physical. Both overreach, both are dogmatic, both require and demand faith. Why would one adhere to the tenets of a religion if one didn't believe in attaining the promises of life beyond the physical. Why would one doggedly pursue the solution to the mysteries of the physical universe if one did not believe that a solution was possible ? What scientist says, "Hell, I think I'll waste my entire life chasing my tail on this insoluable problem" without any hope of actually finding it ? Who would spend a lifetime in prayer and self-denial if one believed there's nothing beyond death ?

We are all so much smarter now, mainly thanks to the mistakes of our ancestors. Scientists should be more forgiving when poking fun at past and present supersitious beliefs. Then they'd have half a chance of being forgiven for own their past failures to understand how things work. I'm open to someone explaining to me what's the difference between a scientific "theory" and an article of faith. Both are proven true or false by whether they obtain the projected results. A supreme being, God, would exist entirely outside the physical universe. Unable to be proven true or false by the "scientific method" which is limited to examining things within the physical universe. One must cross the plain of the physical, i.e., die. Problem with that is, no way back. A black hole is resistant to available instrumentality. The only way to find out how it really works is to go inside. Unfortunately, this will result in one being torn into one's consituent particles. Again, no way back.

I've been known to answer sceptics by saying that I'll trade them my picture of Elvis and Jesus in a flying saucer surrounded by little green men for their picture of a black hole. I say that even though I know that Jesus is in prison with Mohammed, since so many people have found them there. I have it on good authority that they play poker thursday nights.

Let the flames begin

ego · 05-04-2007, 02:26 PM

Tnc, i really cant find where is the questionmark. You ask things that you have already answer. In your words lies the difference between the 2 things you confuse. In religion you believe what you cant explain. In science, you believe only what is already explained, proved and pass the experiment twice (with same results).Thats how science works: observation, theory, theoretical prove, twice an experimental confirmation.Fullstop.
Now, its knowledge.
I think, you have to seperate sciences.Medicine is a science, and has nothing to do with faith, believings, or religion.Trust me, if i notice my doctor prays before the surgery, i am out of there no matter what drug they used on me!
I guess you are refering to physics, this is the science that deals with how the world is made.Physics, is the science of observation.Empty your mind from faith and observe.The faith that stars are there where you see they are, is what kills physics.Yes man, faith no more, thats physics.
And it comes from the desire of people to go.Thats the final target, people want to go, they were always going, they will always try to go.And they observe around only to see what are their options.Whats the next land.The world goes on thanks to desire, not faith.
In their struggle to go (to build the babel tower if you prefer), they comprehend the world. They define the things, they didnt believe them.You can think nowadays that 1+1=2 because thousands of years ago, some people said that from now(then) on, we will call this ONE(1) and the other TWO(2).Its a clear definition, by people faithful only to their minds. People also invented things that never existed before them.Time and zero are two of them (rubbish is a third one).How can you be faith to something that does not exist? Even religions, say that "to the begining, it was logos" (i hope this word is known, cos its not translatable).No religion refers to zero.And if you want to speak about religion through physics, keep it with the definitions of physics.God, in physics terms (as a system able to produce the universe), DID exist and DIED about 1sec*10-13(power).
If you accept god as you said, as "A supreme being, that would exist entirely outside the physical universe" then physics is not the correct approach. Stick with religion, it will be better, and i hope that now you know the difference.

I have an objection about your choice to bring this conversation on the rowdy room. You want to speak about this, or you just want to be flamed?
As Albert said (sorry Sindyloo

), an extented mind will never return to its first shape and size(no matter what kind of insults will be said).So, to who's benefit would be to keep the convo polite?

tnc4fun · 05-04-2007, 07:50 PM

Ego, this sprang from a thread called "Real spookies" in the "Idle Talk" section. I put it here, becausde the statements I made about science seemed to tick a lot of people off. Some inquired as to what I meant, exactly, by my statements. Rather than hijack that thread, I started this one. I also wanted to give those people who were upset the ability to respond forcefully without fear of violating the rules of the board.

I don't believe that religion can solve problems of physics. When religion makes pronouncements on science, it overreaches. When science makes pronouncements on the reality or unreality of supernatural phenomenon, it overreaches. I agree that both should stay within their respective worlds.

You are correct in saying that true science adheres only to what can be proven. But that proof is limited by our ability to understand and the instruments with which we have to explore. Look at any scientific discipline. Original statements of the nature of the subject have considerably changed. Each subsequent iteration is the product of better understanding and better instrumentality.

I believe the best translation we have of "logos" is word, but as you correctly state, this is lacking. Oh, and 1+1=2 most of the time, except in binary, where 1+1=10

.

Ahab · 05-05-2007, 03:00 PM

A religion is specifically a code of ethics, values, and belief. In this respect, science and the scientific method are not a religion. They offer no insights on ethics or values, and its really not a matter of "belief" either. It works only off of things that we know to be true.

People follow a religion to give meaning to their lives, and to find a moral highground or safety that lets them feel like they are good people and are doing what is "right." That is why someone who uses the scientific method in their daily life can also be a Christian or Hindu or whatever. There have been disputes between the church and conventional science, but they have always been over power, not values, ethics and truth.

Also, I believe people who pursue science and study the world around them might not really care if they ever find out the truth. They are just curious. They just want to know how far they can get. Either that or they think they can make a lot of money with a Doctorate degree.

Louise · 05-05-2007, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahab

Either that or they think they can make a lot of money with a Doctorate degree.

Well, im curious about that too...

But money is not an issue for this particular scientist.

tnc4fun · 05-06-2007, 07:55 AM

If all scientists were like Louise, my statement would be false on its face.

Louise · 05-14-2007, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phantom

Spoiled little rich bitch!

Hmm...this is merely a statement of fact

Wiz · 05-14-2007, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louise

Hmm...this is merely a statement of fact

I require proof. I'm sending a team of auditors to the UK

Louise · 05-14-2007, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiz

I require proof. I'm sending a team of auditors to the UK

Hang on...didnt Phantom say he did accounting of some sort???

Wiz · 05-14-2007, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louise

Hang on...didnt Phantom say he did accounting of some sort???

Yes, he did, but if you think that I'm going to pay him to go to the UK to spend time with you, then you still must be drugged-up from the op

Louise · 05-14-2007, 02:35 PM

scientology...*shudders and is violently sick*

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ma/6655207.stm

somedude · 05-14-2007, 02:48 PM

A quote by L. Ron Hubbard sums up Scientology!

"You'll never get rich writing for a cent a word, if a man wanted to be a millionaire he'd create his own religion."

sindyloo · 05-14-2007, 02:56 PM

Hmm Loiuse sit down dear and mind your stitches now!!

For what I say make get you upset........But I think that Science and Religion must rely on the other for existence!?

Religion came from Science and the other way around as well. Recently there was no Solid proof that King Herrod from the Bible didnt exist. But just this week they found his tomb.

Of course the two dont like each other as religion comes from the heart....were as science comes from the mind/brain. There is a passage where God says he knew us even in the womb........well of course science now lets us see in there and we can wonderfully see the child moving and living in there all thanks to science!

Sorry but mind tired, coffee not working and soon off to my bed! But welcome back and you take it easy okay dear!??

sindyloo · 05-14-2007, 02:58 PM

Very good point Somedude!!

yes and religion worked out well for Jim Jones too........Or Did IT??

Wiz · 05-14-2007, 04:27 PM

I've never before met an accountant who would engage in any professional activity for no fee

. Phantom, you are unique among accountants. Come to think of it, you certainly don't fit the accountant stereotype in any other way either

Louise · 05-14-2007, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiz

I've never before met an accountant who would engage in any professional activity for no fee

. Phantom, you are unique among accountants. Come to think of it, you certainly don't fit the accountant stereotype in any other way either

Perhaps Phantom has unintentionally revealed a hidden truth...all these "boring" accountants and the like are, in fact, secret deviants with rich perverted minds...intriguing!

ego · 05-15-2007, 10:48 AM

Dont you prefer analize?

Louise · 05-15-2007, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phantom

Depends on who's giving and receiving!!

I think I can guess...

sindyloo · 05-15-2007, 01:33 PM

HAW YES!! LOUISE GIVING and Phantom RECEIVING!!

ego · 05-15-2007, 02:12 PM

Deal!

05-04-2007, 01:18 PM	#1
tnc4fun Privileged Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 203 Reputation: 453	Science is a useful but limited tool and basically a religion I thought of how I would present this. There will simply be too many gaps, unless I post so much that the admin will say, "Start your own damn website". I'm not purpoting in any way that I know "THE TRUTH". I only know my own "truth". As Keats said, "Truth is beauty and beauty truth". And, as we all know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. As a matter of fact, the only being I consider to have know the universal truth was humiliated in a public trial, scourged and nailed to a cross. I hope never to be so wildly successful. The question is, how do we as human beings, think about everything. We use the available instrumentality, our experience and the experience of others. Understanding is limited by the ability to comprehend, the tools and the time we have to devote to it. The things we try to understand usually start with those that effect us most immediately. What happens, however, when we are at a point where we hit that wall. Something that is simply beyond our comprehension. At that point we have faith and belief. Religion was our first attempt to think about and understand those things in our world that didn't have obvious explanations. The "why" rather than the "who what where and when". Science (literally "knowledge") stems from a desire to ground all things in the physical. Both overreach, both are dogmatic, both require and demand faith. Why would one adhere to the tenets of a religion if one didn't believe in attaining the promises of life beyond the physical. Why would one doggedly pursue the solution to the mysteries of the physical universe if one did not believe that a solution was possible ? What scientist says, "Hell, I think I'll waste my entire life chasing my tail on this insoluable problem" without any hope of actually finding it ? Who would spend a lifetime in prayer and self-denial if one believed there's nothing beyond death ? We are all so much smarter now, mainly thanks to the mistakes of our ancestors. Scientists should be more forgiving when poking fun at past and present supersitious beliefs. Then they'd have half a chance of being forgiven for own their past failures to understand how things work. I'm open to someone explaining to me what's the difference between a scientific "theory" and an article of faith. Both are proven true or false by whether they obtain the projected results. A supreme being, God, would exist entirely outside the physical universe. Unable to be proven true or false by the "scientific method" which is limited to examining things within the physical universe. One must cross the plain of the physical, i.e., die. Problem with that is, no way back. A black hole is resistant to available instrumentality. The only way to find out how it really works is to go inside. Unfortunately, this will result in one being torn into one's consituent particles. Again, no way back. I've been known to answer sceptics by saying that I'll trade them my picture of Elvis and Jesus in a flying saucer surrounded by little green men for their picture of a black hole. I say that even though I know that Jesus is in prison with Mohammed, since so many people have found them there. I have it on good authority that they play poker thursday nights. Let the flames begin __________________ The principles of lust are easy to understand, Do what you feel, feel until the end. The principles of lust are burned into your mind, Do what you want, do it until you find...love. Basic instincts, social life Paradoxes side by side Don't submit to stupid rules Be yourself and nobody's fool Don't accept average habits Open your heart and push the limits. The path of excess leads to the Tower of Wisdom. St. Michael Cretu

05-04-2007, 02:26 PM	#2
ego the obscure Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,457 Reputation: 14892	Tnc, i really cant find where is the questionmark. You ask things that you have already answer. In your words lies the difference between the 2 things you confuse. In religion you believe what you cant explain. In science, you believe only what is already explained, proved and pass the experiment twice (with same results).Thats how science works: observation, theory, theoretical prove, twice an experimental confirmation.Fullstop. Now, its knowledge. I think, you have to seperate sciences.Medicine is a science, and has nothing to do with faith, believings, or religion.Trust me, if i notice my doctor prays before the surgery, i am out of there no matter what drug they used on me! I guess you are refering to physics, this is the science that deals with how the world is made.Physics, is the science of observation.Empty your mind from faith and observe.The faith that stars are there where you see they are, is what kills physics.Yes man, faith no more, thats physics. And it comes from the desire of people to go.Thats the final target, people want to go, they were always going, they will always try to go.And they observe around only to see what are their options.Whats the next land.The world goes on thanks to desire, not faith. In their struggle to go (to build the babel tower if you prefer), they comprehend the world. They define the things, they didnt believe them.You can think nowadays that 1+1=2 because thousands of years ago, some people said that from now(then) on, we will call this ONE(1) and the other TWO(2).Its a clear definition, by people faithful only to their minds. People also invented things that never existed before them.Time and zero are two of them (rubbish is a third one).How can you be faith to something that does not exist? Even religions, say that "to the begining, it was logos" (i hope this word is known, cos its not translatable).No religion refers to zero.And if you want to speak about religion through physics, keep it with the definitions of physics.God, in physics terms (as a system able to produce the universe), DID exist and DIED about 1sec*10-13(power). If you accept god as you said, as "A supreme being, that would exist entirely outside the physical universe" then physics is not the correct approach. Stick with religion, it will be better, and i hope that now you know the difference. I have an objection about your choice to bring this conversation on the rowdy room. You want to speak about this, or you just want to be flamed? As Albert said (sorry Sindyloo ), an extented mind will never return to its first shape and size(no matter what kind of insults will be said).So, to who's benefit would be to keep the convo polite? __________________ ..lure them all into the abyss!

05-04-2007, 07:50 PM	#3
tnc4fun Privileged Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 203 Reputation: 453	Ego, this sprang from a thread called "Real spookies" in the "Idle Talk" section. I put it here, becausde the statements I made about science seemed to tick a lot of people off. Some inquired as to what I meant, exactly, by my statements. Rather than hijack that thread, I started this one. I also wanted to give those people who were upset the ability to respond forcefully without fear of violating the rules of the board. I don't believe that religion can solve problems of physics. When religion makes pronouncements on science, it overreaches. When science makes pronouncements on the reality or unreality of supernatural phenomenon, it overreaches. I agree that both should stay within their respective worlds. You are correct in saying that true science adheres only to what can be proven. But that proof is limited by our ability to understand and the instruments with which we have to explore. Look at any scientific discipline. Original statements of the nature of the subject have considerably changed. Each subsequent iteration is the product of better understanding and better instrumentality. I believe the best translation we have of "logos" is word, but as you correctly state, this is lacking. Oh, and 1+1=2 most of the time, except in binary, where 1+1=10 . __________________ The principles of lust are easy to understand, Do what you feel, feel until the end. The principles of lust are burned into your mind, Do what you want, do it until you find...love. Basic instincts, social life Paradoxes side by side Don't submit to stupid rules Be yourself and nobody's fool Don't accept average habits Open your heart and push the limits. The path of excess leads to the Tower of Wisdom. St. Michael Cretu

05-06-2007, 07:55 AM	#6
tnc4fun Privileged Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 203 Reputation: 453	If all scientists were like Louise, my statement would be false on its face. __________________ The principles of lust are easy to understand, Do what you feel, feel until the end. The principles of lust are burned into your mind, Do what you want, do it until you find...love. Basic instincts, social life Paradoxes side by side Don't submit to stupid rules Be yourself and nobody's fool Don't accept average habits Open your heart and push the limits. The path of excess leads to the Tower of Wisdom. St. Michael Cretu

05-14-2007, 02:35 PM	#11
Louise Privileged Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,865 Reputation: 4905	scientology...shudders and is violently sick http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ma/6655207.stm __________________ ...no mercy in thy icy heart, for the lost prey you stalk and hunt, only the lust...

05-05-2007, 03:00 PM	#4
Ahab Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 32 Reputation: 34	A religion is specifically a code of ethics, values, and belief. In this respect, science and the scientific method are not a religion. They offer no insights on ethics or values, and its really not a matter of "belief" either. It works only off of things that we know to be true. People follow a religion to give meaning to their lives, and to find a moral highground or safety that lets them feel like they are good people and are doing what is "right." That is why someone who uses the scientific method in their daily life can also be a Christian or Hindu or whatever. There have been disputes between the church and conventional science, but they have always been over power, not values, ethics and truth. Also, I believe people who pursue science and study the world around them might not really care if they ever find out the truth. They are just curious. They just want to know how far they can get. Either that or they think they can make a lot of money with a Doctorate degree.

05-14-2007, 02:48 PM	#12
somedude W.I.R. and Marshal Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Way out West!!!! Posts: 8,566 Reputation: 124981	A quote by L. Ron Hubbard sums up Scientology! "You'll never get rich writing for a cent a word, if a man wanted to be a millionaire he'd create his own religion." __________________ I'm a pervert and proud of it!

05-14-2007, 02:56 PM	#13
sindyloo Privileged Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,178 Reputation: 34844	Hmm Loiuse sit down dear and mind your stitches now!! For what I say make get you upset........But I think that Science and Religion must rely on the other for existence!? Religion came from Science and the other way around as well. Recently there was no Solid proof that King Herrod from the Bible didnt exist. But just this week they found his tomb. Of course the two dont like each other as religion comes from the heart....were as science comes from the mind/brain. There is a passage where God says he knew us even in the womb........well of course science now lets us see in there and we can wonderfully see the child moving and living in there all thanks to science! Sorry but mind tired, coffee not working and soon off to my bed! But welcome back and you take it easy okay dear!?? __________________ Tommy Loy, the cabin boy, The dirty little nipper, He filled his ass With broken glass And cirumcized the skipper!

05-14-2007, 02:58 PM	#14
sindyloo Privileged Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,178 Reputation: 34844	Very good point Somedude!! yes and religion worked out well for Jim Jones too........Or Did IT?? __________________ Tommy Loy, the cabin boy, The dirty little nipper, He filled his ass With broken glass And cirumcized the skipper!

05-14-2007, 04:27 PM	#15
Wiz if ever a Wiz there was! Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Great White North eh. Posts: 1,854 Reputation: 23553	I've never before met an accountant who would engage in any professional activity for no fee . Phantom, you are unique among accountants. Come to think of it, you certainly don't fit the accountant stereotype in any other way either __________________ If you find that life is a short, meaningless journey filled with emptiness and pain, just get all the pussy you can.

05-15-2007, 10:48 AM	#17
ego the obscure Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,457 Reputation: 14892	Dont you prefer analize? __________________ ..lure them all into the abyss!

05-15-2007, 01:33 PM	#19
sindyloo Privileged Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,178 Reputation: 34844	HAW YES!! LOUISE GIVING and Phantom RECEIVING!! __________________ Tommy Loy, the cabin boy, The dirty little nipper, He filled his ass With broken glass And cirumcized the skipper!

05-15-2007, 02:12 PM	#20
ego the obscure Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,457 Reputation: 14892	Deal! __________________ ..lure them all into the abyss!