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Old 04-17-2018, 08:56 PM   #741
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Originally Posted by tom8517 View Post
The moron most likely realized that when the when the PSNI was done with him, he had much more serious problems for making a false claim of acting for the IRA.
I remember reading that was a mortal sin during the troubles. Didn't realize it still was, but he deserves a beating at least for stealing from an old couple.
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Old 04-18-2018, 12:02 AM   #742
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I suspect the IRA live by a more Mafioso code, than a Catholic one. “Do what thou wilt, just don’t do it to us.”
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Old 04-18-2018, 07:52 PM   #743
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The actual IRA, as opposed to the alphabet soup of dissidents, probably still exists. They most likely maintain the ruling Army council along with a limited number of "heavy hitters". Most likely this wouldn't rise to them getting involved, but a enough negative publicity might be enough.
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Old 04-19-2018, 10:46 AM   #744
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I suspect Boloney Blair and the PIRA made a deal that ensured they could continue operating under the cover of "dissidents", probably has been an agreed quota of Catholic screws and coppers they can off in exchange for knicking the terrorists. Keep things ticking over nicely, eventually the EU gets to keep Ulster, and Boloney Blair goes down in history as the man that saved Belfast!

I don't believe for a minute that the PIRA command, Sinn Fein, and the British government don't know who the "real" IRA are, and couldn't stop them operating with the click of a finger.
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Old 04-19-2018, 06:55 PM   #745
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don't disagree with some of your post. But the hate between the dissidents and Sinn Fein is very real. Republican history is punctuated by what is known as the "split". the first coming after the treaty, what became Fine Gael and the IRA resulted in the Irish civil war. The free state executed more volunteers than the British did in the 1919 to 1921 war of independence. the next came in the 1930's when DE Valera formed Fianna Fail and again split Sinn Fein and the IRA.

De Valera probably came closer to actually eradicating the IRA once and for all than any one else, He was ruthless in the late 1930's and 40's . Executions, internments, shoot to kill orders reduced the IRA to a very frail shadow of its former self. Of course his motivation was to deny Churchill the excuse to re occupy Ireland.

the IRA re formed in the 1950's, and waged the failed border campaign.

Again the next split comes as the Provo's split from the officials.

and finally, the dissidents split from the provos after good Friday.

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Old 04-21-2018, 12:45 AM   #746
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Splitters!

Not convinced though. Having dissidents running around is too convenient. It allows the Provis to continue their game in Belfast and Londonderry, whilst wearing a mask of peace and respectability. If it were a genuine split, every single continuity, real, official, call them what you will. They would be in prison, or in the ground.
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Old 04-21-2018, 04:30 AM   #747
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The various dissident groups are allowed to exist, but not for the reasons you suggest. You're correct that both the government and the Provos have the capability of ending them very quickly, that they do not has to do with very different motivations.

That the security forces don't launch a massive crackdown has far more to do with the political climate in the UK as a whole. You've posted many times about the kid glove handling of jihadists in mainland Britain. The same holds true in the north. And if it did come to pass the sight of heavily armed police snatch squads spreading out through the nationalist areas would most likely be a huge boon for Sinn Fein. Even the most timid of SDLP voters would be moved into the republican camp.

Then the question of why does the IRA allow the dissidents to function? This is my personal theory on that. British intelligence has concluded that the Provisional's Army Council most likely still exists, and they maintain a limited number of volunteers on active service. They have also concluded that there is no evidence that are engaged in any paramilitary activities. I believe they are still there to guard against the unlikely doomsday scenario of the north completely going up in flames again.

They may see the dissidents as a ready pool of potential recruits. A few well publicized executions and the threat of more to follow would bring the various factions under the Provo's control very quickly.

A theory, a bit far fetched I'll admit. But no more so than the thought of a vast conspiracy between the government and the IRA.

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Old 04-22-2018, 07:08 PM   #748
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Interesting article in the Belfast telegraph the other day. It recounts an interview Ian Paisley gave to RTE in the early 1970's. Paisley was asked if there was anyway he would ever consider reunification with the south. To everyone's complete shock, Paisley replied that under different circumstances, yes he would.

The great enemy of Paisley's life was not Irish republicanism, it was Roman Catholicism. While Ian had a somewhat medieval fear of an all powerful papacy, his fears where not entirely unfounded considering the influence the Catholic church had in the republic in 1969. While he was a loyalist, his motivation was in his own words , maintaining a "Protestant way of life for Protestant people".

Another of the many ironies surrounding politics in the north is that the Catholic church shares the DUP views on abortion and same sex marriage. Small wonder that progress is so hard to come by.

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Old 04-22-2018, 09:32 PM   #749
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Yes, well, one of the big social debates of "modern" Ireland is whether or not to legalise abortion. Only half a century behind the rest of us!
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Old 04-23-2018, 09:00 PM   #750
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The brother of an eight year old girl murdered by a Catholic priest in 1972 is calling on the main Northern Ireland political parties to get their act together, according to the BBCs Northern Ireland news page.

Kathryn Eakin was killed by one of a series of three bombs that exploded in the village of Claudy in July that year, which killed a total of nine people, including a fifteen year old boy.

In 2010 a police report was released that concluded that a Catholic priest, Father James Chesney, had set the bombs. He was later moved to the Republic. The report also concluded that the church, state and police covered up the killing.
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Old 04-24-2018, 08:04 AM   #751
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I'm surprised at a priest doint that. They made a right mess of it:

"Shortly before 10:00 am, three car bombs were placed in the centre of the village, which was busy with shoppers at the time. Initial police investigations found that a car was seen travelling from Claudy at 10:00. It had stopped at the nearby village of Feeny, where a passenger tried to use the public telephone box, which was out-of-order. The car then travelled to Dungiven where it stopped on the Main Street. Two men got out and went into separate shops to use the telephones, which were also out of order following a bomb attack at the local telephone exchange. The men then asked the shop assistants to tell the police at Dungiven that there were three bombs in Claudy, but by this time the first bomb had already detonated"
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Old 04-24-2018, 08:06 AM   #752
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The great enemy of Paisley's life was not Irish republicanism, it was Roman Catholicism.
I wonder then why he was kicking in Catholics doors with the backing of the police and taking Irish flags out of their front windows?
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Old 04-24-2018, 10:00 AM   #753
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Of course, it probably wasn’t an IRA action, the killer priest was probably disobeying orders or some thing. Or it was just an accident, an eight year old girl wasn’t the real target, he was supposed to park the car three villages along, outside the RUC barracks.

Easy to see how a small event can lead to deaths. Well sur-fucking-prise Mickey, if you hadn’t bombed the fucking telephone exchange, those other bombs may not have killed.

In 2009 I carried out waterproofing works at Collyhurst telephone exchange in Manchester. The exchange was often about 1” of water away from the switch banks being wiped out by flood sater. This had been going on for years. Every single telephone, traffic signal, emergency service communications, every thing, goes through that exchange for Northern Manchester, including Corporation Street. Imagine a city completely paralysed just as some bunch of murdering bastards decide to detonate a bomb. No warning, no police, ambulance, fire brigade. Nothing.

Yeah, I’m sure some IRA apologists feel really pleased with themselves that nobody died in Manchester that day, but the plain truth is it was pure luck.
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Old 04-24-2018, 06:53 PM   #754
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Was it luck that no one died in the Manchester bombing? Yes absolutely. It remains the largest device exploded in Britain to this day since WW2.. Here is what is not luck. Had the IRA chosen not to issue a warning the fatalities would have been on a scale with 9/11.

The selective outrage and crocodile tears about IRA activities begin to wear very thin when we muddy the waters with facts.

Upwards of 70% of all fatalities caused by the IRA were armed members of the security forces. Another 40 to 50 were loyalist paramilitaries. Did the IRA kill civilians? Yes they did. Were IRA members involved in sectarian murders? Yes they were. Was this IRA policy? No, it was not.

Contrast this with the record of the loyalist "paramilitary groups", if they even rise to the level of being called paramilitary.

The UVF ambush and murder of the Miami Show band. Was there any pretense of a legitimate republican target? No, there was not. Two of the five killers were members of the Ulster Defense Regiment, a third was a former member. Trained, armed and equipped by the British crown. Recent declassified documents further reveal that MI5 supplied the detonators that were used to blow up the bands van after the murders. Two of the UVF cunts blew themselves up in the process of trying to destroy the van. One of them, Wesley Summerville, has a memorial erected to him by grateful unionists.

Now, the self righteous DUP goes up in flames every year when Sinn Fein commemorates the volunteers killed at Loughall. They died in a shoot out with the SAS while assaulting a heavily fortified police barracks manned by armed RUC constables. But its perfectly ok to commemorate the memory of man who died butchering unarmed musicians? Hypocrisy.

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Old 04-24-2018, 08:11 PM   #755
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Have you noticed me just once attempting to defend or justify the actions of any paramilitary group in Northern Ireland? No? Thought not.
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Old 04-24-2018, 08:16 PM   #756
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You might want to give some thought to justifying your government's actions, given MI5 involvement in the show band killings. Or the persistent speculation that kingsmill was a British black op.
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Old 04-24-2018, 08:25 PM   #757
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Your even hand approach is a sham. In all your posts on this thread, repost a single one referencing loyalist atrocities?
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Old 04-25-2018, 06:56 AM   #758
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You actually went there! Brilliant! I thought, by your own words, Kingsmill was the South Armagh boys, acting against orders? Yes? No? If yes, but you stand by your last statement, then the IRA were colluding with the British government. The guns used were used in other IRA shootings, remember?

What about Claudy? Just how much collusion between the UK government, and the IRA went on there? We all know the Catholic church are pass-masters at covering up the misdemeanours of priests. We both know that if it had come out at the time that a Priest had blown up an eight year old girl, there literally would have been rivers of blood.

Then you write of hypocrisy. When soldiers in the field disobeyed both standing orders, and orders of the day not to chase after rioters that were running away toward peaceful protesters, and opened fire, it was still the British Army that did the killing, and if you search back, I have already referenced that atrocity, yet you are quick to disown volunteers of the Provisional Irish Republican Army when they disobey orders.

I'm going to be quite frank with you here. Prods and Taigs in Belfast can kill each other all fucking day long as far as I am concerned. It is frankly baffling to any right thinking individual as far as I can see, regardless of the historical context. (Basically carrying on a tribal feud from medieval times as far as I can see that has nothing to do with either a united Ireland, or any particular religion.) Sending our troops over there to keep the fuckers apart was a big mistake, but all the same that was no reason for the IRA to come to England and blow up people that had nothing to do with the conflict. THAT is what my problem is with Irish nationalism, that there are nationalists that think the cause entitles them to kill whoever the fuck they please.

It doesn't.
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Old 04-27-2018, 10:54 PM   #759
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I've never disputed that members of the South Armagh IRA did the killings at Kingsmill. The persistent rumor, that becomes more and credible as time goes by, is that Kingsmill , as well as the murders of a nationalist family days before were both manipulated by British military intelligence. This does not in any way excuse the men who pulled the triggers. But the fact the British government acted as the puppet masters in the willful murder of British citizens to achieve their political ends speaks volumes.

You can't dismiss the past record of your government in Ireland. the whole sorry mess that became the troubles is the direct result of decades, perhaps centuries, of British misrule. The Orangemen were planted in Ireland by the crown. The Crown used them as a cudgel to suppress the native Irish for centuries. When the economic and strategic importance of north east Ireland diminished, the loyalists became a junk yard dog whose owners no longer had a need for them.

The north became Britain's dirty little secret. When it finally caught fire in the late '60s the British government's response was brutal and clumsy. If the IRA are monsters, then British policy is the Doctor Frankenstein that created them.

Your contention that the IRA had no right to carry the war to England is typical British arrogance. You made this mess. British colonialism populated graveyards in every corner of the globe with people whose only crime was wanting their country back.

Last edited by tom8517; 04-27-2018 at 11:14 PM.
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Old 04-28-2018, 12:41 AM   #760
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Indeed. I suppose the colonisers of the American continents should be congratulated for restricting their genocidal and ethnic cleansing activities to their own back yards....
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