Rape fantasies in men and women - Rape Board

ChiTownHoney · 11-27-2006, 10:03 PM

Do you think that rape fantasies are more predominant in men or women?

I think they are most predominant in women than men, because I believe that most women like to be manhandled to a certain degree.

Men on the other hand I dont think so, because wouldnt you want to be wanted? If the girl does not want it, does it turn you off?

In rape fantasy for women at least they feel wanted.

(this is under the assumption that men fantasize about being the rapist and women fantasize about being the victim)

opinions?

Gentle · 11-28-2006, 02:03 AM

ya and anything sexual is more obvious in men or pointed out more

it sucks they spread that around the school gag, kids man
but yeah, your answer would have freaked me to man or I'd have liked it lol dunno too far back
peace dude

Sternenlied · 11-28-2006, 08:58 AM

Since this is a big part of my dissertation I could write quite a long post now, but I'll keep it short.

First of all:
I wouldn't judge anything by information aquired by people I met on the internet (exclusively that is, if we met in person afterwards that's a different story). Without attacking anyone on this board: Most people turn to phoney liars on the internet. For whatever their reason is they talk a lot of crap.

What I noticed is this (in short):
Having actual rape fantasies is mostly a male thing. Not only for ancient reasons (to conquer for example) but quite often for modern reasons: Society has changed, men have changed. They're expected to be more sensitive, caring, cultivated, well-build ... more "gay" as many have told me. Although men can behave like that, that's not the nature of most men. So rape fantasy very often is a way to break with their "clean" and "politically correct" lives. Men need to have a chance to live out the primal side of them more than women do.
On the other hand when acting out rape fantasy men are usually more concerned they might hurt their girlfriend/wife/partner then women are. Men tend to be afraid they might actually do something bad to their women. So when turning those fantasies into a real rapeplay men usually have more trouble to completely get into it.
No devaluation or accusation here ... so please don't get me wrong.

Women however like the change in male society (on one hand) but still want a "real man" - at least in bed. So this is a paradox of the mind as well. We want both worlds to co-exist in one man. Thus the fantasy to be "taken be a real man". That's something most women fantasise about. The effective rape fantasy is rather unual in women.
When acting out a fantasy in a rapeplay women don't concern themselves with being hurt. They trust the man not to do it so they can let themselves fall into the spirit of it more easily.

This was speaking very, very generally now and just a few thoughts. This subject is way to vast to put into a simple post.

Quote:

Men of every walk get rejected by women almost all the time. Our society is such that men approach women and "offer" their services and the women choose to be with the male or not.

That's is true by the way. Not only might harsh rejection - maybe multiple times - trigger aggression, possibly leading to violent fantasies, it also triggers the male instinct to conquer and take the spoils.

BoredMom · 11-28-2006, 09:35 AM

Actually, after getting brave enough to talk with other people I know, I've found that my fantasies are not all that unusual among the female population. I'm sure there is a large percentage of the female population that would think such fantasies are totally mad and we should all be commited for thinking of such things. But -- maybe deep down they are just trying to deny what others gave into. With the fantasies, I'm not talking about the type where the woman is beaten up. Only where she is forced to submit. What woman wouldn't want to be wanted that badly? Would she actually want it to happen in real life? Probably not. But our dreams and fantasies are part of what get us through the day.

This is the same for men it would seem. What man wouldn't love to be able to just take any woman who struck his fancy? Anyone who has watched the older westerns has seen woman being grabbed and gropped and other men watching and laughing at the womans destiny. I'm sure this really happened in life, and many of the women were probably forced regardless of their feelings.

It can all be a very fine line. As long as we keep the fantasies just that -- fantasies -- what harm does it do? And if we set up a roleplay and actually experience it, no harm there either, right?

Following gags comment about being thrown down by a real man, I have to agree. The intimate nature of lovemaking is wonderful and exciting. So gentle, so desired. But sometimes you just want someone to really take charge and do what they want, forcing you as they go. Rough sex as you please.

To get back on topic, I feel that women run this fantasy more than men, we just don't discuss it in real life. Maybe because it's such a forbidden topic in our society. We're not supposed to want such things, but we do. This board shows that clearly. Men are probably more apt to actually say what they want to their buddies, but do it in a joking way so as not to seem real.

bruisedelbows · 11-28-2006, 10:44 AM

It seems to me that basically everyone is going to just impose their own idea of what's a "rape fantasy" is, which is going to inevitably color their idea of who does it more. It's like that study where 90% of drivers think they are above average drivers, and when asked what being a good driver is, they all describe how they drive: "A good driver can drive fast without crashing" or "a good driver is slow and cautious" or "a good driver can park in Manhattan" or whatever. I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of people who have "cut off her boobs and fuck her with a knife" rape fantasies are men, for example. On the other hand if my criteria for "rape fantasy" is "hot guy won't take no for an answer, even though I'm almost certain I really don't want it!", then I will say women have them more.

I must say it freaks me out that a "REAL man" means someone who throws women down and fucks them whether they like it or not, and that actually giving a shit about women means you are "more gay"...but I'm happy to be considered an unreal, gay man if that's the case. More than happy.

BoredMom · 11-28-2006, 11:08 AM

Quote:

I must say it freaks me out that a "REAL man" means someone who throws women down and fucks them whether they like it or not, and that actually giving a shit about women means you are "more gay"...but I'm happy to be considered an unreal, gay man if that's the case. More than happy.

Women also dream of the guy that is gentle and loving -- the one who takes more than ample time to make them feel as if they are on top of the world. But getting that all the time becomes boring. We need variety to stay interested day after day. Always knowing what you will get just loses something along the way.

I've never considered being gentle as 'gay'. It's wonderful. Just remember that on occasion we need a little rough play to get the blood pumping again.

Generic · 11-28-2006, 11:17 AM

I really haven't a clue - however, I remember looking up some studies that showed a very high percentage of men would actually rape a women if they knew they could get away with it (no one would know, basically).

It was something line 65-75% of them.

My guess would actually be that it would be men who fantasize more... And I would guess more are likely to actually commit the crime if they could than they let on (people who admit to fantasy, that is).

sindyloo · 11-28-2006, 11:21 AM

So then BoredMom variety is the "Spice of Life" it seems

Most of the subject is fantasy which usually exists in the minds of men and women. But there are the few where fantasy becomes mixed with reality and that is the biggest problem today!

Stern?? would all of this come from the very early days of mankind where men where the hunter/gatherers and woman supplied the services of cooking taking care of children and of course providing the man that took them with his children! It seems to me to be almost ingrained from early times into our regressive memories both female and male!

gaggirl · 11-28-2006, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoredMom

But getting that all the time becomes boring. We need variety to stay interested day after day.

thats for damn sure. Id go nuts if I had to have vanilla sex for the rest of my life! My man for instance, is a "real man", but hes a real man in the sense that he would do anything for anyone, is caring, supportive, the absolute best cheerleader, and he loves his kids his pets his family and his freinds like nothing else. Hes not an insecure coward who has to dominate women to pump up his flagging ego. (but we will ignore that I thought he was gay when I met him cause he was such a gentleman!)

So... when I say "REAL man" on a FANTASY board, dont take it out of context, Im referring to the archetypical caveman, the old mills and boon bodice ripper style of testosterone driven masculinity, that obviously many women harbour at least one fantasy about. But would I want a Real Man in a Fantasy context every day? HELL NO!!!

and naturally we will "impose" our own ideas of what a rape fantasy is and respond accordingly... its such an intensely personal thing!!

ChiTownHoney · 11-28-2006, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoredMom

This is the same for men it would seem. What man wouldn't love to be able to just take any woman who struck his fancy? Anyone who has watched the older westerns has seen woman being grabbed and gropped and other men watching and laughing at the womans destiny. I'm sure this really happened in life, and many of the women were probably forced regardless of their feelings.

You know, I never believed in gangrape. I always believed that a male who would rape is a sick, sadistic individual (nevermind that it turns me on...but whatever...), and that most men WOULDNT rape. But learning about gangrapes that happen in warzones. Indigineous women being gangraped by soldiers, and not just 2, but 5 at a time. Now, what are the chances that the 5 men that just ransacked your hut are all sick, sadistic, psychos. All of them. Never mind that they are soldiers in an army. What is with that? Why do they do that? Why?

In old days, this happened all the time. The spoils of war. The raping of women. I start to think...maybe its man's nature....now I know ALL of you will say no, its not or whatever....but I believe it to be true. Maybe they raped because they could. No consequences. Somebody wrote here that almost 70% of men would rape if there were no consequences. Its primal.

I know that we are all given a will and so, and a conscience, so no I am not saying that rape is justified. I could say the same thing about murder. Do only sadistic people murder? How about war? Are you sick and sadistic if you point a gun in the face of another human being and blow his head off? What about in a warzone? When does human nature and conscience interact? When do they not?

Evil things are here in this world because humans have it within themselves. We are the most evil animals on the earth and it will be the end of us.

Sex and agression.

Just some thoughts.

MarcEdeSade · 11-29-2006, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiTownHoney

You know, I never believed in gangrape. I always believed that a male who would rape is a sick, sadistic individual (nevermind that it turns me on...but whatever...), and that most men WOULDNT rape. But learning about gangrapes that happen in warzones. Indigineous women being gangraped by soldiers, and not just 2, but 5 at a time. Now, what are the chances that the 5 men that just ransacked your hut are all sick, sadistic, psychos. All of them. Never mind that they are soldiers in an army. What is with that? Why do they do that? Why?

In old days, this happened all the time. The spoils of war. The raping of women. I start to think...maybe its man's nature....now I know ALL of you will say no, its not or whatever....but I believe it to be true. Maybe they raped because they could. No consequences. Somebody wrote here that almost 70% of men would rape if there were no consequences. Its primal.

I know that we are all given a will and so, and a conscience, so no I am not saying that rape is justified. I could say the same thing about murder. Do only sadistic people murder? How about war? Are you sick and sadistic if you point a gun in the face of another human being and blow his head off? What about in a warzone? When does human nature and conscience interact? When do they not?

Evil things are here in this world because humans have it within themselves. We are the most evil animals on the earth and it will be the end of us.

Sex and agression.

Just some thoughts.

How many people will murder if they could get away with it.

The deflowered truth is that war is murder. Preferably serial murder or mass murder, committed repeatedly. The state of mind required to overcome the inherent wrong felt towards murdering makes rape, a far more natural act, nothing to be concerned about.

Ahhh, genocide. I love the smell of zyklon in the morning.

Such interesting animals we all are.

So infinite in capacity for cruelty,

Such interesting animals indeed.

Sternenlied · 11-29-2006, 06:56 AM

Oh, this is so exciting. One of the few occasions many people talk about something in a way quite worthwhile ...

One:
Very true, we have to differ between the many opinions on what rape fantasies are. I noticed a man's fantasy is often more focused on the sex itself, a woman's more on the submission, the power the man has over her. But in general there is no definition what a rape fantasy actually is. Women tend to fantasise about a rape in a rather romantic way, most women I talked to had very naive fantasies about being raped. I didn't add them, since we're talking about "hard" fantasies - no handsome George Clooney coming and taking them, they love it and although forced it's the best sex they ever had. I wouldn't consider that fantasising about being raped.
So in essence it's hard to judge what's rape fantasy and what's not.

Two:
I didn't intend to degrade any man to "gay", not a "real man", that's just the expression I heard quite a lot when talking to women. That's what I meant by paradox: All of them are real men, but women want so many things sometimes that they don't realise some things can't co-exist and some already do, they just have to talk to their man to find out.

Three:
The state of war is an exceptional condition that changes the rules. As already stated a man at war can't stay however he used to be. He has to kill, has to survive, most probably for a cause he doesn't even believe him. Take WW2 for example. The Russians had not much of a choice. It was being overrun by the Germans, being shot by their own government if they didn't want to fight or go and kill other humans.
You're at war for years, you loose family, home, friends ... years of insanity. How can one possibly expect soldiers to stay completely sane? Then there's a pause (or possibly victory) ... all your feelings - hate, despair, grief - everything has to unload ... how? Most of the time it's directed at the civil population. And in a war like this noone's left except women and children, the men are gone. So I can imagine why so many rapes occur in wars.
The other side is immoralising the enemy. In wars, especially in genocidal wars like africa organised mass rapes are an instrument to strike at the enemy when you can't simply kill him.

Four:
Committing actual rape when you can be sure you won't get caught: Yes, I think there are much more men who would do it than women would like to be raped for real.

Five:
Our Marquis is right. Humans are capable of such cruelty, noone wants to think about it. When we ask ourselves how some people can be that cruel we usually don't get to any conclusion, we only think "I could never do that". The truth is it's power! Give someone power over other people and it will change this person! Especially if it's the power to do everything without the fear of ever being held responsible, it it's "legal". Granted, a disturbed state of mind (i.e. inferiority complex, suppressed anger, ...) can add to it, but being in a position to do anything you please corrupts people. I wouldn't say mankind is evil in general, just too easily corrupted.

SugarT · 11-13-2008, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoredMom

Actually, after getting brave enough to talk with other people I know, I've found that my fantasies are not all that unusual among the female population. I'm sure there is a large percentage of the female population that would think such fantasies are totally mad and we should all be commited for thinking of such things. But -- maybe deep down they are just trying to deny what others gave into. With the fantasies, I'm not talking about the type where the woman is beaten up. Only where she is forced to submit. What woman wouldn't want to be wanted that badly? Would she actually want it to happen in real life? Probably not. But our dreams and fantasies are part of what get us through the day.

This is the same for men it would seem. What man wouldn't love to be able to just take any woman who struck his fancy? Anyone who has watched the older westerns has seen woman being grabbed and gropped and other men watching and laughing at the womans destiny. I'm sure this really happened in life, and many of the women were probably forced regardless of their feelings.

It can all be a very fine line. As long as we keep the fantasies just that -- fantasies -- what harm does it do? And if we set up a roleplay and actually experience it, no harm there either, right?

Following gags comment about being thrown down by a real man, I have to agree. The intimate nature of lovemaking is wonderful and exciting. So gentle, so desired. But sometimes you just want someone to really take charge and do what they want, forcing you as they go. Rough sex as you please.

To get back on topic, I feel that women run this fantasy more than men, we just don't discuss it in real life. Maybe because it's such a forbidden topic in our society. We're not supposed to want such things, but we do. This board shows that clearly. Men are probably more apt to actually say what they want to their buddies, but do it in a joking way so as not to seem real.

Thats really interesting BoredMom. I have to agree it seems that way well I can speak for a man anyway, I would never rape as i know its a terrbile crime and even as we have seen WAR reveals who you really are there have been men show morality in these situations.

I feel that men are more visual and when I see a hot woman my mind sees what i want to do to her, no loving as good as it is, just out and out sex.

So for a man its sexual satisfaction and perhaps even for a woman? well case by case, for me violent rape horrifies me, but coereced blackmailed rape I have to say is interesting.

I will post more later

SugarT · 11-13-2008, 08:07 AM

I was a kid of i`m not sure waht age I saw a TV show set in 1890s a man beckoned a woman into his tent and at gunpoint made her strip, nothing else was seen but it left a lasting impression on me.

I felt in some way the humiliattion she must have felt and as a compassionate person I often try to imagine how others must feel, I think it would be a better world if we all could, However I also have urges as a man so I can imagine and understand why men rape, not condone it but I can see if they didn't have compassion how they could.

I don't like really violent rape scenes in movies much but ones where a woman has no choice to comply interests me phsycologically.

I particullary fantasize about interacial and intercultural rape as its a deeper form of control I think. Most would immediatley think of that as Black Guy=big dick white girl...well that is a sterotype but for me its more subtle.

for example

I lived in Japan and there is a serious rape culture there. Real and Fantasy. The men (not all off course) are very chauvinistic and unreported rape is rampant. One part of this I noticed was human trafficking, only very recently has this been adressed and little done.

Trafficking is terrible but it shows how some women end up hookers as they have no choice, many women come form other parts of Asia and I can only imagine how tough it must be for them as their countries were invaded by japanese only 60 years ago.

I will post some more later...i hate typing!!

Error Nomad · 11-29-2006, 01:50 AM

ChiTownHoney; Intelligent question. I don't think it's one of the things you mentioned, I think it's a combination of all of them plus some others.

Gangrape in war is extremely common, and has been in every conflict where combatant men were around women and had the opportunity, with -very- few exceptions. Even in most of the exceptions, there were reported cases of rape between soldiers and supposedly friendly (as in; their side) women if left long enough.

So why? And why so much more likely for a guy you'd never worry to leave your daughter alone with in the civilian world?

"Giving a man a rifle changes his sense of property rights" (don't remember the source)
It's a definite that soldiers in a war will loot. The longer and harder the war, the more likely that will be. The less professional the army, the more certain it will be. But it will happen. I think part of this is that to a human male (or female) in duress, if something will alleviate that duress, you will take it. Extreme example is a drowning person drowning another by climbing on them. It happens frequently. It's an extreme example, but an extreme (immediate death) situation. There chicken you stole from the peasant or blanket from a townsman may not be as bad, but you weren't under as much duress. But a war that goes on long enough will have plenty of that.

That they notice they can do this and it helps them sets up;

"Power flows from the barrel of a gun" (Mao I think)
When you realize that you have power over someone, you may not be tempted to use it, but you are aware you can. Once a soldier breaks his normal societal rules, he knows he can. Interestingly, this doesn't mean that especially rulesbound societies produce soldiers who are better behaved. Look at WWII Japan, Nazi Germany, or some examples in Vietnam (*). These weren't mostly what we'd have thought of as "bad men" if we'd met them at our inlaws dinner party.

And it's biochemical. There are multiple studies on the relations in the human brain to sex and violence. The two responsive centers are closely physically and structurally related. It's part of the 4 'F's; Flee, Fight, Feed, and Fuck. All primal, all shared by men and women.

When a male is engaged in violence they are sometimes much more sexually aroused. I've seen this myself, the first time playing something as non-dangerous as paintball. The Victory Fuck doesn't necessarily have to be voluntary.

Thousand Yard Stare
The more these men have seen, and the more psychological trauma they've seen, the more one of two things will happen; 1. They will snap, or 2) They will become numb. That doesn't mean they're robots, but that for one or more of many reasons they are not feeling emotion the way most people do. They may be feeling -more- of it, or less of it, or only parts of it. But their minds are protecting them from the damage until they can assimilate it.
This doesn't necessarily make them heartless or more dangerous, but to avoid option #1 they're going to have to shunt some of the emotions away that we associate with pain.

Dehumanization
This is the kicker. To kill someone you have to be able to a) hate them, b) not care about them, or c) care about yourself and your buddies more.
Usually it's a combination of 'c' and 'b'. In direct combat most soldiers aren't thinking about who that person is, or if they are they aren't firing (or fundamentally don't care and never can, which is pretty rare overall). After combat there has either be a reason, or an understanding that there isn't one. Either one of these has a very high potential of dehumanizing the enemy. If there is a reason, they are in the wrong. If there isn't, I am in the wrong and can choose to accept that (and probably break) or reject it and blame them. I may decide that "It's just a job", but that still leaves me detached.

Most soldiers don't rape, at least in modern first world armies. But if you get enough of these conditions together you will create a condition where there are significant numbers of guys who feel threatened, scared, horny, angry, and have no significant adult supervision. And then you will have rape and many other atrocities.

EN

(* These examples seem to differ, but I think the common thread is dehumanization, plus other factors. For the Japanese, the combination of xenophobia and excessive discipline led to a situation where once faced with someone further down the power structure, and inhuman to boot, the result was atrocity. For the Germans I think a combination of dehumanization (Nazi propaganda, getting shot at constantly by lots pf Russians), and excessive duress, and for the US military in Vietnam, I'd say dehumanization (who is the enemy/friend again?) and breakdown of control. Most of the events I'm aware of there happened several years into the fight)

ChiTownHoney · 11-29-2006, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Error Nomad

ChiTownHoney; Intelligent question. I don't think it's one of the things you mentioned, I think it's a combination of all of them plus some others.

Gangrape in war is extremely common, and has been in every conflict where combatant men were around women and had the opportunity, with -very- few exceptions. Even in most of the exceptions, there were reported cases of rape between soldiers and supposedly friendly (as in; their side) women if left long enough.

So why? And why so much more likely for a guy you'd never worry to leave your daughter alone with in the civilian world?

"Giving a man a rifle changes his sense of property rights" (don't remember the source)
It's a definite that soldiers in a war will loot. The longer and harder the war, the more likely that will be. The less professional the army, the more certain it will be. But it will happen. I think part of this is that to a human male (or female) in duress, if something will alleviate that duress, you will take it. Extreme example is a drowning person drowning another by climbing on them. It happens frequently. It's an extreme example, but an extreme (immediate death) situation. There chicken you stole from the peasant or blanket from a townsman may not be as bad, but you weren't under as much duress. But a war that goes on long enough will have plenty of that.

That they notice they can do this and it helps them sets up;

"Power flows from the barrel of a gun" (Mao I think)
When you realize that you have power over someone, you may not be tempted to use it, but you are aware you can. Once a soldier breaks his normal societal rules, he knows he can. Interestingly, this doesn't mean that especially rulesbound societies produce soldiers who are better behaved. Look at WWII Japan, Nazi Germany, or some examples in Vietnam (*). These weren't mostly what we'd have thought of as "bad men" if we'd met them at our inlaws dinner party.

And it's biochemical. There are multiple studies on the relations in the human brain to sex and violence. The two responsive centers are closely physically and structurally related. It's part of the 4 'F's; Flee, Fight, Feed, and Fuck. All primal, all shared by men and women.

When a male is engaged in violence they are sometimes much more sexually aroused. I've seen this myself, the first time playing something as non-dangerous as paintball. The Victory Fuck doesn't necessarily have to be voluntary.

Thousand Yard Stare
The more these men have seen, and the more psychological trauma they've seen, the more one of two things will happen; 1. They will snap, or 2) They will become numb. That doesn't mean they're robots, but that for one or more of many reasons they are not feeling emotion the way most people do. They may be feeling -more- of it, or less of it, or only parts of it. But their minds are protecting them from the damage until they can assimilate it.
This doesn't necessarily make them heartless or more dangerous, but to avoid option #1 they're going to have to shunt some of the emotions away that we associate with pain.

Dehumanization
This is the kicker. To kill someone you have to be able to a) hate them, b) not care about them, or c) care about yourself and your buddies more.
Usually it's a combination of 'c' and 'b'. In direct combat most soldiers aren't thinking about who that person is, or if they are they aren't firing (or fundamentally don't care and never can, which is pretty rare overall). After combat there has either be a reason, or an understanding that there isn't one. Either one of these has a very high potential of dehumanizing the enemy. If there is a reason, they are in the wrong. If there isn't, I am in the wrong and can choose to accept that (and probably break) or reject it and blame them. I may decide that "It's just a job", but that still leaves me detached.

Most soldiers don't rape, at least in modern first world armies. But if you get enough of these conditions together you will create a condition where there are significant numbers of guys who feel threatened, scared, horny, angry, and have no significant adult supervision. And then you will have rape and many other atrocities.

EN

(* These examples seem to differ, but I think the common thread is dehumanization, plus other factors. For the Japanese, the combination of xenophobia and excessive discipline led to a situation where once faced with someone further down the power structure, and inhuman to boot, the result was atrocity. For the Germans I think a combination of dehumanization (Nazi propaganda, getting shot at constantly by lots pf Russians), and excessive duress, and for the US military in Vietnam, I'd say dehumanization (who is the enemy/friend again?) and breakdown of control. Most of the events I'm aware of there happened several years into the fight)

This is great stuff! Thanks!

I think you are correct in the sense that when any human being has power, he will abuse it to some extent. That is the truth of humanity. We will never be satisfied with what we have, but strive for more. That is why we have advanced tremendously throughout the ages. Man always wants more.

It is true that most soldiers do not rape. But rapes are most common in third world countries. This is because the army is most often not consisting of volunteers.

The rapes of thousands indigineous women in Guatemala went unpunished during the guerilla war. It was not even just the guerillas, but the actualy Army who raped women 5 men at once. Almost all women prisoners were raped and tortured. I think this is because the men who were soldiers were in the army against there will. They did these things because they were angry themselves. Also, there were no consequences. But how can that be justified?

Maybe power changes a man. I have never had any great amount of power, but even when I had a little bit, I loved it. I could easily take advantage of it.

bruisedelbows · 11-30-2006, 04:35 AM

Sternenlied, I think we're on the same page. It just blows my mind when people say more women than men fantasize about rape, but I think in the sense that they are thinking about, maybe it's true. And certainly if Brad Pitt wouldn't take no for an answer, it would still be rape legally and in my opinion morally, so there's no way for me to say it's not really a rape fantasy.

I remember in some other thread, maybe deleted in the crash, people were asked what they liked in a rape movie, and a lot of posters said it just ruins it if the victim has an orgasm, or if it takes more than 10 minutes, or whatever--probably they (I'm guessing they were mostly men) might think my own fantasies/stories/comics were not really rape fantasies either, since the victim usually, eventually, finds her body responding against her will.

Ultimately I think almost everyone has some kind of rough sex/domination/non-consensual/reluctant/rape fantasies, so without a more specific definition it's kind of impossible to discuss it.

Sternenlied · 11-30-2006, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Do you think that rape is justified in the circumstances of war?

No, not at all! The fact that the men are at war doesn't change the rape itself for the victim. Rape is rape.
All I meant is I wouldn't compare rape in war to a rape happening in just another city in a street just around the corner. I think the mental state of mind - even the reason for the rape - of the rapist is quite different in times of war, that's all. Still doesn't make it right at all!
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough on that.

Quote:

I remember in some other thread, maybe deleted in the crash, people were asked what they liked in a rape movie, and a lot of posters said it just ruins it if the victim has an orgasm, or if it takes more than 10 minutes, or whatever--probably they (I'm guessing they were mostly men) might think my own fantasies/stories/comics were not really rape fantasies either, since the victim usually, eventually, finds her body responding against her will.

Well, I have to admit the victim enjoying it and/or having an orgasm as well doesn't do it for me either. But taste is something you just can't argue about.
I like things as well others don't.
I can understand though what the lure of the orgasm in a rape (for a man) can be: Being raped and still your body is betraying you by having an orgasm. It's the ultimate humiliation.

So I wouldn't divide people in those having "real rape fantasies" those who don't. Because you're right, it's just to vast a territory to discuss it without narrowing it down to a certain degree.

Error Nomad · 11-30-2006, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiTownHoney

This is great stuff! Thanks!

I think you are correct in the sense that when any human being has power, he will abuse it to some extent. That is the truth of humanity. We will never be satisfied with what we have, but strive for more. That is why we have advanced tremendously throughout the ages. Man always wants more.

It is true that most soldiers do not rape. But rapes are most common in third world countries. This is because the army is most often not consisting of volunteers.

The rapes of thousands indigineous women in Guatemala went unpunished during the guerilla war. It was not even just the guerillas, but the actualy Army who raped women 5 men at once. Almost all women prisoners were raped and tortured. I think this is because the men who were soldiers were in the army against there will. They did these things because they were angry themselves. Also, there were no consequences. But how can that be justified?

Maybe power changes a man. I have never had any great amount of power, but even when I had a little bit, I loved it. I could easily take advantage of it.

It's not just that they're not volunteers, it's that they're -unwilling- volunteers. This means that any message of discipline and honor transmitted from above isn't likely to take, and that you're going to end up with a cross-section of society that will include a higher percentage of shitheads. In WWII the Western Allied troops were not generally known for rape, though I'm
sure it occasionally occurred. But during Vietnam some situations surfaced. This was still a tiny minority, probably equivalent what you would find in society normally, but these individuals had much more power and violence egging them on.

It's not justified. It's not something that you should sleep well about at night. But justification is just a way of saying "I'm right" with authority, and you can justify some pretty horrible things. It just is, as everything else is, and should be understood. One of the many reasons to avoid war.

EN

ego · 12-01-2006, 02:44 PM

A rape as an act of war is to complicated to be sure about.And very different than peace time.During war, the victim is called enemy.Soldiers are there with killing as main purpose.If killing is allowed, perhaps they guess that minor crimes are allowed also.Who is going to stop them (or put charges) ? Any army commander prefers his soldiers break on non-mombatants than among them.In some wars, soldiers are asked to rape (when war happens for land).Rape is another way to demoralize ememies.To make them be afraid for you.
Secondly, soldiers are probably thinking as a mass.When they do the crime as a team the responsibility is divided.
Generally if your life is "kill enemies-burn villages-destroy everything that moves", a rape wont destroy your day....

If it is justified? I cant say. A kill is justified during war?
What i know is that a war never comes alone.It brings death, destruction, pain, hunger, misery and perhaps some rape.
So, what is to be justified (if can be justified) is the war itself, not its aftereffects.
And i am afraid some wars were not only inevitable, but absolutely necessary.

About the opening question now: I dont have a clue.What i know is that most of girlfriends i had, were glad to add something different in bedroom.And that nine in ten girls i meet and like them, i imagine i rape them also.

11-28-2006, 02:03 AM	#2
Gentle Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 7 Reputation: 10	ya and anything sexual is more obvious in men or pointed out more it sucks they spread that around the school gag, kids man but yeah, your answer would have freaked me to man or I'd have liked it lol dunno too far back peace dude __________________ We fly to your patronage, O Holy Mother Of God.Despise not our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us of all dangers, O ever glorious and blessed virgin.

11-29-2006, 06:56 AM	#12
Sternenlied Unknown Entity Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Niflheim Posts: 2,427 Reputation: 77819	Oh, this is so exciting. One of the few occasions many people talk about something in a way quite worthwhile ... One: Very true, we have to differ between the many opinions on what rape fantasies are. I noticed a man's fantasy is often more focused on the sex itself, a woman's more on the submission, the power the man has over her. But in general there is no definition what a rape fantasy actually is. Women tend to fantasise about a rape in a rather romantic way, most women I talked to had very naive fantasies about being raped. I didn't add them, since we're talking about "hard" fantasies - no handsome George Clooney coming and taking them, they love it and although forced it's the best sex they ever had. I wouldn't consider that fantasising about being raped. So in essence it's hard to judge what's rape fantasy and what's not. Two: I didn't intend to degrade any man to "gay", not a "real man", that's just the expression I heard quite a lot when talking to women. That's what I meant by paradox: All of them are real men, but women want so many things sometimes that they don't realise some things can't co-exist and some already do, they just have to talk to their man to find out. Three: The state of war is an exceptional condition that changes the rules. As already stated a man at war can't stay however he used to be. He has to kill, has to survive, most probably for a cause he doesn't even believe him. Take WW2 for example. The Russians had not much of a choice. It was being overrun by the Germans, being shot by their own government if they didn't want to fight or go and kill other humans. You're at war for years, you loose family, home, friends ... years of insanity. How can one possibly expect soldiers to stay completely sane? Then there's a pause (or possibly victory) ... all your feelings - hate, despair, grief - everything has to unload ... how? Most of the time it's directed at the civil population. And in a war like this noone's left except women and children, the men are gone. So I can imagine why so many rapes occur in wars. The other side is immoralising the enemy. In wars, especially in genocidal wars like africa organised mass rapes are an instrument to strike at the enemy when you can't simply kill him. Four: Committing actual rape when you can be sure you won't get caught: Yes, I think there are much more men who would do it than women would like to be raped for real. Five: Our Marquis is right. Humans are capable of such cruelty, noone wants to think about it. When we ask ourselves how some people can be that cruel we usually don't get to any conclusion, we only think "I could never do that". The truth is it's power! Give someone power over other people and it will change this person! Especially if it's the power to do everything without the fear of ever being held responsible, it it's "legal". Granted, a disturbed state of mind (i.e. inferiority complex, suppressed anger, ...) can add to it, but being in a position to do anything you please corrupts people. I wouldn't say mankind is evil in general, just too easily corrupted. __________________ The Life and Death of Sam Crow - How the Sons of Anarchy lost their way

11-29-2006, 01:50 AM	#15
Error Nomad Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 40 Reputation: -10	ChiTownHoney; Intelligent question. I don't think it's one of the things you mentioned, I think it's a combination of all of them plus some others. Gangrape in war is extremely common, and has been in every conflict where combatant men were around women and had the opportunity, with -very- few exceptions. Even in most of the exceptions, there were reported cases of rape between soldiers and supposedly friendly (as in; their side) women if left long enough. So why? And why so much more likely for a guy you'd never worry to leave your daughter alone with in the civilian world? "Giving a man a rifle changes his sense of property rights" (don't remember the source) It's a definite that soldiers in a war will loot. The longer and harder the war, the more likely that will be. The less professional the army, the more certain it will be. But it will happen. I think part of this is that to a human male (or female) in duress, if something will alleviate that duress, you will take it. Extreme example is a drowning person drowning another by climbing on them. It happens frequently. It's an extreme example, but an extreme (immediate death) situation. There chicken you stole from the peasant or blanket from a townsman may not be as bad, but you weren't under as much duress. But a war that goes on long enough will have plenty of that. That they notice they can do this and it helps them sets up; "Power flows from the barrel of a gun" (Mao I think) When you realize that you have power over someone, you may not be tempted to use it, but you are aware you can. Once a soldier breaks his normal societal rules, he knows he can. Interestingly, this doesn't mean that especially rulesbound societies produce soldiers who are better behaved. Look at WWII Japan, Nazi Germany, or some examples in Vietnam (). These weren't mostly what we'd have thought of as "bad men" if we'd met them at our inlaws dinner party. And it's biochemical. There are multiple studies on the relations in the human brain to sex and violence. The two responsive centers are closely physically and structurally related. It's part of the 4 'F's; Flee, Fight, Feed, and Fuck. All primal, all shared by men and women. When a male is engaged in violence they are sometimes much more sexually aroused. I've seen this myself, the first time playing something as non-dangerous as paintball. The Victory Fuck doesn't necessarily have to be voluntary. Thousand Yard Stare The more these men have seen, and the more psychological trauma they've seen, the more one of two things will happen; 1. They will snap, or 2) They will become numb. That doesn't mean they're robots, but that for one or more of many reasons they are not feeling emotion the way most people do. They may be feeling -more- of it, or less of it, or only parts of it. But their minds are protecting them from the damage until they can assimilate it. This doesn't necessarily make them heartless or more dangerous, but to avoid option #1 they're going to have to shunt some of the emotions away that we associate with pain. Dehumanization This is the kicker. To kill someone you have to be able to a) hate them, b) not care about them, or c) care about yourself and your buddies more. Usually it's a combination of 'c' and 'b'. In direct combat most soldiers aren't thinking about who that person is, or if they are they aren't firing (or fundamentally don't care and never can, which is pretty rare overall). After combat there has either be a reason, or an understanding that there isn't one. Either one of these has a very high potential of dehumanizing the enemy. If there is a reason, they are in the wrong. If there isn't, I am in the wrong and can choose to accept that (and probably break) or reject it and blame them. I may decide that "It's just a job", but that still leaves me detached. Most soldiers don't rape, at least in modern first world armies. But if you get enough of these conditions together you will create a condition where there are significant numbers of guys who feel threatened, scared, horny, angry, and have no significant adult supervision. And then you will have rape and many other atrocities. EN ( These examples seem to differ, but I think the common thread is dehumanization, plus other factors. For the Japanese, the combination of xenophobia and excessive discipline led to a situation where once faced with someone further down the power structure, and inhuman to boot, the result was atrocity. For the Germans I think a combination of dehumanization (Nazi propaganda, getting shot at constantly by lots pf Russians), and excessive duress, and for the US military in Vietnam, I'd say dehumanization (who is the enemy/friend again?) and breakdown of control. Most of the events I'm aware of there happened several years into the fight) Last edited by Error Nomad; 11-29-2006 at 02:03 AM.

11-27-2006, 10:03 PM	#1
ChiTownHoney Pa'l Mundo Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: ObamaNation Posts: 2,460 Reputation: 33436	Rape fantasies in men and women Do you think that rape fantasies are more predominant in men or women? I think they are most predominant in women than men, because I believe that most women like to be manhandled to a certain degree. Men on the other hand I dont think so, because wouldnt you want to be wanted? If the girl does not want it, does it turn you off? In rape fantasy for women at least they feel wanted. (this is under the assumption that men fantasize about being the rapist and women fantasize about being the victim) opinions?

11-28-2006, 09:35 AM	#4
BoredMom Privileged Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Brookland, Arkansas Posts: 549 Reputation: 5835	Actually, after getting brave enough to talk with other people I know, I've found that my fantasies are not all that unusual among the female population. I'm sure there is a large percentage of the female population that would think such fantasies are totally mad and we should all be commited for thinking of such things. But -- maybe deep down they are just trying to deny what others gave into. With the fantasies, I'm not talking about the type where the woman is beaten up. Only where she is forced to submit. What woman wouldn't want to be wanted that badly? Would she actually want it to happen in real life? Probably not. But our dreams and fantasies are part of what get us through the day. This is the same for men it would seem. What man wouldn't love to be able to just take any woman who struck his fancy? Anyone who has watched the older westerns has seen woman being grabbed and gropped and other men watching and laughing at the womans destiny. I'm sure this really happened in life, and many of the women were probably forced regardless of their feelings. It can all be a very fine line. As long as we keep the fantasies just that -- fantasies -- what harm does it do? And if we set up a roleplay and actually experience it, no harm there either, right? Following gags comment about being thrown down by a real man, I have to agree. The intimate nature of lovemaking is wonderful and exciting. So gentle, so desired. But sometimes you just want someone to really take charge and do what they want, forcing you as they go. Rough sex as you please. To get back on topic, I feel that women run this fantasy more than men, we just don't discuss it in real life. Maybe because it's such a forbidden topic in our society. We're not supposed to want such things, but we do. This board shows that clearly. Men are probably more apt to actually say what they want to their buddies, but do it in a joking way so as not to seem real.

11-28-2006, 10:44 AM	#5
bruisedelbows Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 150 Reputation: 293	It seems to me that basically everyone is going to just impose their own idea of what's a "rape fantasy" is, which is going to inevitably color their idea of who does it more. It's like that study where 90% of drivers think they are above average drivers, and when asked what being a good driver is, they all describe how they drive: "A good driver can drive fast without crashing" or "a good driver is slow and cautious" or "a good driver can park in Manhattan" or whatever. I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of people who have "cut off her boobs and fuck her with a knife" rape fantasies are men, for example. On the other hand if my criteria for "rape fantasy" is "hot guy won't take no for an answer, even though I'm almost certain I really don't want it!", then I will say women have them more. I must say it freaks me out that a "REAL man" means someone who throws women down and fucks them whether they like it or not, and that actually giving a shit about women means you are "more gay"...but I'm happy to be considered an unreal, gay man if that's the case. More than happy.

11-28-2006, 11:17 AM	#7
Generic Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 21 Reputation: -585	I really haven't a clue - however, I remember looking up some studies that showed a very high percentage of men would actually rape a women if they knew they could get away with it (no one would know, basically). It was something line 65-75% of them. My guess would actually be that it would be men who fantasize more... And I would guess more are likely to actually commit the crime if they could than they let on (people who admit to fantasy, that is).

11-28-2006, 11:21 AM	#8
sindyloo Privileged Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,178 Reputation: 34844	So then BoredMom variety is the "Spice of Life" it seems Most of the subject is fantasy which usually exists in the minds of men and women. But there are the few where fantasy becomes mixed with reality and that is the biggest problem today! Stern?? would all of this come from the very early days of mankind where men where the hunter/gatherers and woman supplied the services of cooking taking care of children and of course providing the man that took them with his children! It seems to me to be almost ingrained from early times into our regressive memories both female and male!

11-13-2008, 08:07 AM	#14
SugarT Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Aust. Posts: 139 Reputation: 2559	I was a kid of i`m not sure waht age I saw a TV show set in 1890s a man beckoned a woman into his tent and at gunpoint made her strip, nothing else was seen but it left a lasting impression on me. I felt in some way the humiliattion she must have felt and as a compassionate person I often try to imagine how others must feel, I think it would be a better world if we all could, However I also have urges as a man so I can imagine and understand why men rape, not condone it but I can see if they didn't have compassion how they could. I don't like really violent rape scenes in movies much but ones where a woman has no choice to comply interests me phsycologically. I particullary fantasize about interacial and intercultural rape as its a deeper form of control I think. Most would immediatley think of that as Black Guy=big dick white girl...well that is a sterotype but for me its more subtle. for example I lived in Japan and there is a serious rape culture there. Real and Fantasy. The men (not all off course) are very chauvinistic and unreported rape is rampant. One part of this I noticed was human trafficking, only very recently has this been adressed and little done. Trafficking is terrible but it shows how some women end up hookers as they have no choice, many women come form other parts of Asia and I can only imagine how tough it must be for them as their countries were invaded by japanese only 60 years ago. I will post some more later...i hate typing!!

11-30-2006, 04:35 AM	#17
bruisedelbows Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 150 Reputation: 293	Sternenlied, I think we're on the same page. It just blows my mind when people say more women than men fantasize about rape, but I think in the sense that they are thinking about, maybe it's true. And certainly if Brad Pitt wouldn't take no for an answer, it would still be rape legally and in my opinion morally, so there's no way for me to say it's not really a rape fantasy. I remember in some other thread, maybe deleted in the crash, people were asked what they liked in a rape movie, and a lot of posters said it just ruins it if the victim has an orgasm, or if it takes more than 10 minutes, or whatever--probably they (I'm guessing they were mostly men) might think my own fantasies/stories/comics were not really rape fantasies either, since the victim usually, eventually, finds her body responding against her will. Ultimately I think almost everyone has some kind of rough sex/domination/non-consensual/reluctant/rape fantasies, so without a more specific definition it's kind of impossible to discuss it.

12-01-2006, 02:44 PM	#20
ego the obscure Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,457 Reputation: 14892	A rape as an act of war is to complicated to be sure about.And very different than peace time.During war, the victim is called enemy.Soldiers are there with killing as main purpose.If killing is allowed, perhaps they guess that minor crimes are allowed also.Who is going to stop them (or put charges) ? Any army commander prefers his soldiers break on non-mombatants than among them.In some wars, soldiers are asked to rape (when war happens for land).Rape is another way to demoralize ememies.To make them be afraid for you. Secondly, soldiers are probably thinking as a mass.When they do the crime as a team the responsibility is divided. Generally if your life is "kill enemies-burn villages-destroy everything that moves", a rape wont destroy your day.... If it is justified? I cant say. A kill is justified during war? What i know is that a war never comes alone.It brings death, destruction, pain, hunger, misery and perhaps some rape. So, what is to be justified (if can be justified) is the war itself, not its aftereffects. And i am afraid some wars were not only inevitable, but absolutely necessary. About the opening question now: I dont have a clue.What i know is that most of girlfriends i had, were glad to add something different in bedroom.And that nine in ten girls i meet and like them, i imagine i rape them also.