Responsibility of rape victims?

[TZOFOSHO]

to be completely honest, i haven't watched the video from the OP. However, i've read all the posts following and i think this thread has spawned itself into one of the best i've read on RB...

As far as consent goes, i agree with most of the posters here (a much appreciated male opinion, i know), obviously a male shouldn't have such dire consequences levied against him from a woman who is merely regretting/forgetting the circumstances that led to her current position (namely, sleeping next to a male who she doesn't remember meeting)...

There is a line where a woman is obviously too drunk to be making any kind of sound decision, sexual or not. If i have to help her to my car and up to my apartment, obviously she is far and past the line of consent...


Forgive me, as i am not trying to be 'troll'ish, but...there has to be some measure of responsibility on the woman's part.

If i (as a male) get wasted out of my mind and put myself in a position to get my ass kicked by a bouncer for talking shit, i'm going to jail (at least for the night) because i was drunk and i said i was going to hit him. There is no consideration given to the reasons that lead to me getting that drunk (for arguments sake a bunch of women giving me shots of JD all night) or to the fact that i might not have meant what i said while i was drunk.

I am responsible for a)the decision i made to get wasted. b)the decisions i make in that state of mind.

Why should it not be the same for women?
(Again, ignoring the scenario where you are carried out of a bar because you are passed out drunk)

The decision that the female made to this point was to let herself get drunk. No one forced her not to have the wherewithal to stop drinking when she got too drunk (at least, too drunk to consent).

If i take her home, she's doesn't seem likes she's too wasted to make a decision, we've been having a good time all night leading up to this, and she never tells me to stop, why in god's green earth would I? I'm drunk as well, and i like vagina.

Responsibility has to come in somewhere. People will try and take advantage of you no matter who or where you are (male or female). It is your job to be responsible for your self. If you don't feel like you can remain sober enough, bring a friend to watch over you, have the bartender call you a cab, or better yet, don't drink.

I guess my whole point was that people (men and women) should be held to the same drunken expectation.

If a female walks out of a bar on her own, to go to a guys house (who she's been flirting with all night) and never says no, what do you expect a guy to do? Is there a consent form that should be filled out prior to every drunken hook up?



As a reminder:
Bear in mind, my post is assuming you were able to leave an establishment on your own, instances where the females is too drunk to walk, or drugged are different scenarios than what i am arguing right now.

[TZOFOSHO]

Re reading the OP, don't have my headphones, so i still haven't watched the video, but, as i can gather from the original arument...
i don't think a woman should be punished for her decision to look attractive, nor do i think it should have any merit on the discussion of rape fantasy.

However, with an eye to my last post, i think Women should be aware of what they are wearing, and the ways they are acting, i don't think any woman dressed for a night out should be shocked that she might be attracting the wrong type of attention.

What should go without saying is that she shouldn't be taken against her will, that said, in regards to consent, and a male's confusion on the matter, see my previous post.

[TZOFOSHO]

i see now that my post did nothing but further move away from the op, however, i'm drinking and i'm self absorbed, so i shall let it stand until someone tells me i am a drunken, self absorbed fuck .

Originally Posted by RapeKarenX

Same as slamming back 20 shots at the guys insistence and peer pressure when not able to make judgments.

at the guys insistence? who gives a fuck? If the woman is peer pressured into getting wasted or getting fucked, what's the difference? Alot to be said for will power, self confidence and personal responsibility.

Originally Posted by BTN

Plus its been shown that alot of women that claim they have their drinks spiked and so on were just too drunk. A friend of mine (a former police officer) has told me that this is the case 90% of the time.

love to see stats or a link on this, but, i can't imagine they exist, especially to back up a number like 90%.

Originally Posted by RapeKarenX

If men were taught self-respect and respect of women and boundaries- this wouldn't be an issue.

If women were taught self respect and self reliance, this wouldn't be an issue.

Originally Posted by RapeKarenX

Men will be greatly rewarded for good behavior.

before that happens for that one guy who the woman finds attractive, 3 guys will be rewarded by being told they're a great friend.

Originally Posted by RapeKarenX

people wake up, men and women, without knowing who they slept with and not know that person's name. That is just awful.

easy answer for both sexes, don't get drunk and go home with someone.

Originally Posted by RapeKarenX

In a blackout one can still move and talk but not remember. Once ranted about Snoopy and acted super silly and never remembered. Friend took me home. Know i was treated with respect because that's the friends I choose to hang with.

perfect example of my entire point. You went out, got drunk and had friends to look out for you. Your friends knew you were past decision making, and took you home. You had friends there to look out for you. But, had you been flirting with a guy the whole time, and had no friends there, how was the guy supposed to know that what seemed like a drunk girl was a wasted girl incapable of making her own adult decisions?

Originally Posted by RapeKarenX

What woman wants to have public disclosure / intrusion / law enforcement repercussions for regretting who they slept with? Isn't that a bit outrageous? Rape is grossly under-reported already.

The woman's responsibility ends when she is too intoxicated to even speak without slurring/obviously intoxicated. We all share responsibility in doing the right thing.

I wouldn't say slurring should be the line, i'm sure there are a million women every week who where slurring drunk and wanted to have sex with a guy, and pursued those means to the end. However, i agree that a slurring woman not OBVIOUSLY coming on to you should give a man reason to pause.

Originally Posted by RapeKarenX

If I was in a situation to see a woman too drunk and men were obviously making advances without her brain being cognizant of the actions, I would step in and ask the lady where she lives and try to pull her out of the situation even if it's to get coffee or hydrate the "victim" with bottled water. Doing good when we see wrong is all of our responsibility. We do not want that happening to our sister, partner, mother, aunt, good friend.

Sorry if the level of responsibility does not suit all. If you were too drunk to drive, your friends and stranger would /should care enough to take your keys away, so why does a women/victim get less consideration?

If i am wrong, than congrats, but i think (have nothing to back it up but personal experience) the majority of men and women would ignore the plight of a drunken person as not being their problem.

I think women/'victims' (as you put it) get the same consideration, i think the problem comes when you're hanging over a person all night, and everyone thinks that they'd be stepping on your toes interfering. I don't think people would let you go home with a person you didn't want to go home with, or a person you didn't know who seemed insistent upon taking you home.

Originally Posted by RapeKarenX

They seem contradictory because if a woman "suggests" something doesn't make it finite. I may suggest making cookies, but is it going to be on the activities list- no!

so should the man assume there aren't going to be cookies? I don't think this is a particularly good example, but, if you imply that something is going to happen, wouldn't it make more sense to assume that it is going to happen than that it's not?

[ego]

Come on my friend, how will they manipulate us if they do what they promise?

Keeping word is a men's-only value!
For example, you promise relationship to get laid and next day you're gone; you are a twat.
She promises sex to get favors and then she has headache; she is just a woman.

[RapeKarenX]

Originally Posted by TZOFOSHO

so should the man assume there aren't going to be cookies? I don't think this is a particularly good example, but, if you imply that something is going to happen, wouldn't it make more sense to assume that it is going to happen than that it's not?

All shouldn't assume. It sounds like a covert demand. Say (with no alcohol involved) Julie kissed her ex, Steve, after he insisted on coming over to talk. She missed him and hugged him and it led to a little play. Julie was adamant from the beginning and said no sex, she just wanted to feel some passion and missed Steve. Julie stated clearly that sex would be unhealthy and damaging. But Steve got demanding and said, "Are you really gonna leave me like this? You know I'm a man and you can't leave me like this." Julie says we agreed on no sex, this wasn't a tease, but a slip of self-will (heart and mind). Steve insists and keeps at her while she's getting ready to leave and get to an appointment. He paws at her, lifts her skirt, she keeps fighting, starts crying and repeating no. But the demand is so overwhelming and she doesn't want to get an emotional or physical confrontation so she submits in order to save herself from being hurt, mostly insults but would have led to rape. Julie doesn't want to handle the emotions of being raped, so the submission was under duress. What was she to do? Be hurt phusically and emotionally or submit to preempt the abuse?

Was she to call the cops before the sex? She doesn't want her ex to get in trouble. How would she possibly get to the phone without being hurt or harmed? Where's the fine line between saying no and a man's pressing demand blaming a woman that he got so worked up?

Should Julie assume that because she fooled around that's agreeing to SEX even when she stated no sex many times, cautious of the fooling around?

In the end, Julie didn't blame Steve about the sex. She played a part and she put herself in danger. Julie hoped that Steve may be respecting boundaries more and hoped he has learned from the past. Now, Julie realizes she was trying to get milk from a hardware store. Julie hurts from knowing she really did not want to have sex but got bullied into sex. Julie takes responsibilty for her part. Julie should have known better than to even want a hug or any physical affection. Steve should have never bullied Julie into consenting to sex.

Who should take responsibility for what part?

[Fae]

Originally Posted by RapeKarenX

ok- my point is drunk cannot equal consent in my book, but that is just me. damn feminist in me! lol. but i wouldn't behave like that drunk either. sober yes, but not drunk. so what do i know???!!!

Damn feminist in me too. As an equal to any guy, the moment I take a drink I am responsible for my own actions. I make sure I am in a safe environment, with people I know and trust. I know when I take one drink too many. I know when I fucked up and put myself in a situation I shouldn't. I don't blame any guy for my own excess.

Also from the original start of this thread:

Originally Posted by pravjey

Hi,
As hot-blooded man, I do agree that women should perhaps be a bit more aware of how they dress. (Of course, this does not justify real rape.)

Reminds me of going out partying in college with my male friends. I had a friend of a friend say I was dressed like a slut. One of the other guys almost hit him and told him, "If you call a girl that she'll stop dressing like that for us."

It's a bit of a side tangent but men do you really want women covering everything up if the law is changed to say women are responsible because of how they dress?

[pervipete]

Originally Posted by Fae

Reminds me of going out partying in college with my male friends. I had a friend of a friend say I was dressed like a slut. One of the other guys almost hit him and told him, "If you call a girl that she'll stop dressing like that for us."

It's a bit of a side tangent but men do you really want women covering everything up if the law is changed to say women are responsible because of how they dress?

I like this guys attitude...

No, it would take all the fun out of people watching.

[ego]

Originally Posted by RapeKarenX

All shouldn't assume. It sounds like a covert demand. Say .............................. responsibility for what part?

The way you put it, things are simple and clear.

Steve is a fucking rapist (besides being oppressive-urgent) and Julie has no responsibility because:
he insisted on coming over- he wasnt invited
she was clear since the beginning, no sex (regardless of her reasons; she has the right to say no just for the fan of it)
she fought but he didnt stop
kissing your ex is not provoking behaviour (especially if you have say -no sex!)
accepting people you know in your home is not a dangerous action
generally, she did everything she could do to avoid getting raped



But i think nobody argues about stories like that one. Have you tried to make it a bit more complex?
Lets say for example that she told him to come. She said she's fancy for a quick one. She was participating in foreplay. And then, she thought its not a good idea.
What about that story?
To me, Steve is still a rapist. He should have stop even if he was half way in.
But hell, Julie shares a big part of responsibility; actually, she did everything she could do to get raped! I could even say, she caused her rape!

Originally Posted by Fae

Damn feminist in me too. As an equal to any guy, the moment I take a drink I am responsible for my own actions.

Omg, at last! These really are words suitable to a person who wants to be equal and knows how to do it!
Many women want to be equal in their rights, but when it comes to obligations, they want to be ... women!

Originally Posted by Fae

Reminds me of going out partying in college with my male friends. I had a friend of a friend say I was dressed like a slut. One of the other guys almost hit him and told him, "If you call a girl that she'll stop dressing like that for us."

It's a bit of a side tangent but men do you really want women covering everything up if the law is changed to say women are responsible because of how they dress?

ΜΕΤΡΟΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΟΝ said once an ancestor of mine. "Moderation is the best thing" we could say it means....

[Lil-Mac]

I assume this is a hypothetical...

Steve is a bastard, Steve should be fucking shot.

So what if Julie wants a little play, a little necking. Julie has every right to set boundries and those boundries should be respected. More importantly Steve knew going in there were boundries. When those boundries were reached he should have stopped, plain and simple.

I know, I know... I can hear the guys now "Hey, it's hard to stop, she got me all worked up.. I need to get mines". You know what... tough shit. Whem the girl says stop... you stop. End of discussion. Anything.... ANY-FUCKING-THING past that point is forced, it's rape. Steve is a fucking rapist, nothing more, nothing less. He's a god-damned, piece-o-shit rapist.

Now the question is should Julie call the cops... tough call that. I want to say yes, I really, really do but I would advise she think about. There is no evidence of forced sex, she didnt fight, there was no struggle. It will be her word against his... this would be a very, very tough case to prove. Many DA's wont even take a case like this to trial because of lack of evidence.

What I would suggest is that Julie cut off all contact.. I mean all. If she lives near him then move. If he continues to try to harrass her get a restraining order (yeah I know that's f'in weak but it's something concrete the DA can file charges on should he violate it).

Beyond that, I dont know. With any luck it wont happen again, but I fear for Julie. I really do.