Raymond Pist, enemy of free speech

[Tor Inju]

RC was never about free speech. It was a created as a place to have fun. Raymond Pist did much to make the place much less fun and he was removed. He is no more 'entitled' to his free speech there than he is in any privately owned place. If he comes to my house and insists on coming in a spewing a bunch of garbage, he's getting tossed out on his ear. That doesn't mean his rights have been violated. Not being allowed to post on one internet board does not equal the Nazi's treatment of Jews.

But it obviously was never about Pist's ferverant desire to promote free speech. If it was, he would not then work to deny other's their ACTUAL right to free speech. His 'I hate the government' stance lasted only so long as it didn't get in the way. He is more than willing to run to them to get them to shut up speech he doesn't care for.

Rape Board, from what I have seen, is more about free speech and good for it. There is certainly a place for that. Two different styles of board.

[angryangrybastard]

Originally Posted by Grm

An interesting discourse mr angry, angry, angry, angry, er, angrybastard. Might I ask you one question, why are you so angry?
unconvinced
Grm

One nickname is as good as another.

various of your members and members of RC (as well as admins) can offer evidence of Pist's actions, assertions and bare faced lies. You will not find him to be a positive presence.

Politics, Politics, Politics, shitye remarks, back stabbing, Who gives a flying F

Originally Posted by Tor Inju

RC was never about free speech. It was a created as a place to have fun. Raymond Pist did much to make the place much less fun and he was removed. He is no more 'entitled' to his free speech there than he is in any privately owned place. If he comes to my house and insists on coming in a spewing a bunch of garbage, he's getting tossed out on his ear. That doesn't mean his rights have been violated. Not being allowed to post on one internet board does not equal the Nazi's treatment of Jews.

But it obviously was never about Pist's ferverant desire to promote free speech. If it was, he would not then work to deny other's their ACTUAL right to free speech. His 'I hate the government' stance lasted only so long as it didn't get in the way. He is more than willing to run to them to get them to shut up speech he doesn't care for.

Rape Board, from what I have seen, is more about free speech and good for it. There is certainly a place for that. Two different styles of board.

arent u the same guy who cried about losing ur girlfriend to another online guy?

BWAHHAHahahahhahahahahahahah

[Rheostatic]

Originally Posted by persiangurl

arent u the same guy who cried about losing ur girlfriend to another online guy?

BWAHHAHahahahhahahahahahahah

*Ring, Ring*

"Hello, you've reached the suicide prevention hotline. This is PG speaking, how can I help you?..."

Originally Posted by Rheostatic

*Ring, Ring*

"Hello, you've reached the suicide prevention hotline. This is PG speaking, how can I help you?..."

lol

ill take the job, if i get to hand out razorblades

[Tor Inju]

Originally Posted by persiangurl

arent u the same guy who cried about losing ur girlfriend to another online guy?

BWAHHAHahahahhahahahahahahah

Ah, the insulting other members thing only applies to some.

[somedude]

Originally Posted by Tor Inju

Ah, the insulting other members thing only applies to some.

Asking a question isn't the same as an insult, even if it has less than complimentary tones.

[Tor Inju]

Originally Posted by somedude

Asking a question isn't the same as an insult, even if it has less than complimentary tones.

Um....Riiiiight.

[Grm]

Originally Posted by Tor Inju

Ah, the insulting other members thing only applies to some.

I'm sorry you felt insulted Tor, by Pg's post. I assume that you are in fact not a homosexual? Because Rape Board does not tolerate homophobia.
Gay vicar
Grm

Originally Posted by Bub

I don't understand.....why would you think he was a homosexual when he's being accused of losing his GIRLFRIEND to another guy? That makes the kinda sense that ain't no sense.

SPAULDING ALERT!

[Brek]

It is important to bear in mind the stakes we are debating for here. An honest libertarian values freedom not just for some arbitrary reason but because freedom is what human beings innately deserve and desire. Because to be free is to be able to grow and mature and become an ethical human being in the fullest sense of the word. And this means that an honest, authentic libertarian not only opposes negatively any unnecessary domination or authoritarian intervention that does not stop a rights conflict or perform some vital need, but also personally does not resolve disputes with any statist means until one has completely exhausted all possible alternatives, ESPECIALLY when this person clearly behaved cavalierly without the slightest regard for the safety or comfortability of the PRIVATE forum he was part of. Even Murray Rothbard, in his libertarian utopia, uses only a judicial system, not a parliamentary or legislative system, to resolve disputes, one where there is a fair arbiter but where people themselves adversarially decide. (I have some problems with Rothbard and his ideas, and support a non-statist anarchist federated polity and economy, but that is neither here nor there).

"Fair enough,though the irony of course is that this public debate must take place here, rather than at RC, where it began. Because I currently am unable to post on RC--what with being banned and all. This challenge would have gone unanswered except for the fact that some of my old friends from RC called it to my attention. "

Ironic, yes. Good point? No.

"Let's start with your last question first: What RC did, specifically, is ban me, not because I broke any laws or any rules, but because someone didn't like some of the things I said (while other people DID like the same things, and still others took the more appropriate position that I was entitled to my opinions, even if they dissagreed. And of course, everyone had the option to use the "ignore" button on me.) I was banned, permanently, without warning, and without good reason, from a forum where I made numerous on-topic contributions, and made more than a few friends. That's what they did."

Well, Raymond, there's a few problems with that argument.

First of all, an admin can stop even cogent and thoughtful posts if the posts are so detrimental to the character of the site that they actually ruin everyone else's time, just as if I show up to a book club about Bakunin and start talking about Harry Potter and the administrator decides to ask me to PARTICIPATE. This can be abused, but many of your posts could easily be justified as being eliminated under this rubric.

Second, with rape fantasy, to clearly acknowledge the rights and responsibilities of the men and women involved and to distinguish between fantasy and reality, whatever our predilections, is also important. This is another thing that I think you may misunderstand or improperly check against.

Third, if you are banned, perhaps e-mailing the admin and asking what happened would be a good idea before you attempt to ruin the whole site. And when you were given a second chance, you were rude and crass to administrators and others.

A certain level of courtesy, behavior and wisdom is appropriate, and I feel that you may be lacking it.

Now, I happen to disagree with your banning, but clearly to trump authoritarian motives by private, non-corporate actors who are acting, possibly misguided, in the best interest of the long-term existence and membership of the forum, with asking PUBLIC tyranny to intervene on your behalf is a joke. You are asking the state to oppress in order to stop oppression. That is antithetical to every part of libertarianism. I would personally have tolerated some of what you did and then PMed you privately with warnings or used the delete button.

By the by, the fact that others can go out of their way to ignore you does not justify you being a troll. QED.

"Does it warrent "outing the community to your friends and family"? No. Nor do I understand why you would think that I have the power to do that. I don't know any of your family or friends. Most people don't post under their real names. And my beef is not with any individual member of RC. Just with the administrator who wrongly banned me. And even for that, I hold no real animosity, I only asked that the situation be resolved."

Sometimes, Raymond, in the real world bosses and other people will do mean and unwarranted things to you. The only recourse, sometimes, is to grow up.
Not beg for Big Brother to help.

By the way, Raymond: If the FBI or other agencies or groups do end up actually paying any attention, I doubt it but hey, they can do IP scans and investigation and find pretty much everything about every one of us out. Especially those with pictures posted. Further, the more someone posts, the more likely they will be able to find things out about them. Therefore, you are punishing people for cogent activity. The ironies just mount.

"RC and online communities like it exist only because they fly under the radar of those busybodies who would like to see it censored. Just bringing it to the attention of these holier-than-thou pencil-pushers would likely be the beginning of the end of RC. (And while they look for ways to pull the plug, RC would be under such intense scrutiny, that NOBODY would feel free to speak their minds.)"

Which is precisely why your behavior is so noxious and against proper expression, far trumping your own illegitimate experience.

Bear in mind, Raymond, that though alternative media for you do not justify bad administration, you can, at NO COST and very little time, create your own forum or site, possibly even getting it linked from Rape Club or Rape Board. You can use personals. You can join dozens of other boards.

A forum, which is a PRIVATE institution, has a certain degree of leeway to make standards of behavior and content and to ban those who do not comply.

"THIS is what was done to me. Is my nose for irony really that keen, that I'm the only one who can see it? I'm going to type this next bit really slowly: THEY prevented ME from posting, sooooooooooooo my only recourse was to say "Excuse me, but if you don't allow me to post, I'll do that which is in my power to show you how it feels to not be allowed to post." It's the only option I had. While I believe in free speech on the internet, forgive me if I don't shed a tear at the prospect of those who do NOT believe in free speech being censored. Those who CLAIM to believe in free speech, but mean free speech only for themselves and not others, are much less deserving of that right."

No, you had another option, Raymond. Be the bigger man and put it down. Make a new account and behave according to the rules of the forum. NO ONE EVER DESERVES TO BE DEPRIVED OF THE RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH. By your logic, Republicans and Nazis could be deprived of their rights to free speech and justice. If libertarianism is to mean ANYTHING, and Chomsky and Rand agree on this, Pist, it is CATEGORICAL. NO ONE is deprived of the rights that are provided. As Chomsky puts it, Stalin and Hitler were for free speech they liked.

"Finally, we're up to your first sentence. Objectivists and Liberertarians rarely see eye to eye (Objectivists claim that Libertarans "stole" the idea of freedom from them. ) And of course, neither Objectivists nor Libertarians suffer Fascists gladly. And Fascists hate everybody."

You're joking, right? Ayn Rand describes a system of market justice and personal rights that, whether or not an individual libertarian left or right disagrees with it (I sure as hell do), is fully in line with libertarianism. Other Objectivist philosophies are very much anti-libertarian... as anti-libertarian as turning to the FBI to repress others' speech because you don't like what they say on their own board that they put their own effort and time to run.

"I haven't threatened to shut RC down. Again, I don't know why you would endow me with such superpowers. I only threatened to bring RC to the attention of those type of people who like to shut these types of things down. And only that, IF I wasn't allowed to post there, just like everyone else who abides by the rules."

"I didn't shoot him, officer, I just hired someone else to do it!"

Actually, Raymond, I would respect you MORE if you handled the problem yourself. The fact that you turn to state repression and then try to wash your hands of it is the PROBLEM. Don't ever claim you're a libertarian if you call the cops because your feelings are hurt.

"NOBODY who posts there wants RC to be shut down. Again, I've been in contact with some very sensible people who agree that having a pissing match is silly when we really all just want the same thing: to be able to discuss our opinions in a vibrant online community on topics which interest us all. There are some technical issues yet to be hammered out, and there is some concern about how some of the folks who were responsible for getting me unfairly banned in the first place will respond to my return."

Fantastic. Then put down the big repressive stick and handle it privately. Make compromises. Listen. Actually put your money where your mouth is. Liberty is hard. Justice is hard. It requires respecting other people's latitude.

"So you see, there is no need at the moment to be overly concerned with me carrying out my threat anyway. I'm confident that in the end, freedom will prevail---it usually does in the long run. "

Hitler could have said that. Neither you or I would respect that answer with a response. The fallacy is obvious: Your individual contribution against freedom, no matter how small or unsuccessful, is wrong.

You then DARE to quote Niemoller, ignoring that YOU are the one trying to get the Jews shot.

By the way, Raymond... I proposed the title, Objectivist Neo-Fascist, to Pieter. Here's why. You advocate free speech while turning to repression to deprive it. Ironically echoing the very hypocrisy you say should deprive you of free speech. YOU YOURSELF HAVE PRODUCED THE JUSTIFICATION FOR YOUR BAN. Your interlocutors hold less extreme free speech positions than you do, there is no hypocrisy except that you express. (I, incidentally, hold much more extreme, and consistent, ones.)

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

`

[Pieter G.]

Ah yes, please forgive my young friend Brek. He has yet to learn the art of brevity. He is a zealous young man of good heart for which I cannot say enough good things.

A bit of explanation also for he who identifies himself as SomeDude: I listed Persiangurl as my referral because I wished to be noticed by such a beautiful young woman. Those such as me, well into advanced age, require such rays of sunshine in our lives. No harm was meant and I hope none was taken.

But enough of this and back to the discussion at hand.

To make dear Brek’s points clear:
Raymond Pist: you are an enemy of free speech. You would set in motion the mechanism of the state that could have repercussions far beyond one little bulletin board. The Internet is still a fragile place and governments everywhere are still struggling to deal with its implications. China has responded to the threat of open discourse among its population by building firewall to block access to what it deems dangerous. Other states may follow.

So you bring the attention of the religious right and politicians to bear in order to shut down RC. Do you think it would stop there? This forum would also become a target. But this site and many others exist outside the territorial boundaries of the United States. How long before that which you would set in motion would build a barrier, like that China has built, to prevent access to sites like this? How long before more and more topics are included?

I should hope that you would reconsider your plans based on what I have said. Do not be an enemy of free speech.

[somedude]

My thought on this whole thread is, khorus e piræm chetoreh?

[Emily Johnson]

Originally Posted by somedude

My thought on this whole thread is, khorus e piræm chetoreh?

Which means?

[gal4]

Brek's reply translated into Pig Latin.

Itway isway importantway otay earbay inway indmay ethay akesstay
eway areway ebatingday orfay erehay. Anway onesthay
ibertarianlay aluesvay eedomfray otnay ustjay orfay omesay
arbitraryway easonray utbay ecausebay eedomfray isway atwhay
umanhay eingsbay innatelyway eserveday andway esireday.
Ecausebay otay ebay eefray isway otay ebay ableway otay owgray
andway aturemay andway ecomebay anway ethicalway umanhay eingbay
inway ethay ullestfay ensesay ofway ethay ordway. Andway isthay
eansmay atthay anway onesthay, authenticway ibertarianlay otnay
onlyway opposesway egativelynay anyway unnecessaryway
ominationday orway authoritarianway interventionway atthay
oesday otnay opstay away ightsray onflictcay orway erformpay
omesay italvay eednay, utbay alsoway ersonallypay oesday otnay
esolveray isputesday ithway anyway atiststay eansmay untilway
oneway ashay ompletelycay exhaustedway allway ossiblepay
alternativesway, ESPECIALLYWAY enwhay isthay ersonpay earlyclay
ehavedbay avalierlycay ithoutway ethay ightestslay egardray
orfay ethay afetysay orway omfortabilitycay ofway ethay
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away udicialjay ystemsay, otnay away arliamentarypay orway
egislativelay ystemsay, otay esolveray isputesday, oneway
erewhay erethay isway away airfay arbiterway utbay erewhay
eoplepay emselvesthay adversariallyway ecideday. (Iway avehay
omesay oblemspray ithway Othbardray andway ishay ideasway,
andway upportsay away onnay-atiststay anarchistway ederatedfay
olitypay andway economyway, utbay atthay isway eithernay erehay
ornay erethay).

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atthay isthay ublicpay ebateday ustmay aketay aceplay erehay,
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ithway eingbay annedbay andway allway. Isthay allengechay
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atthay omesay ofway ymay oldway iendsfray omfray RCAY alledcay
itway otay ymay attentionway. "

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"Et'slay artstay ithway ouryay astlay estionquay irstfay: Atwhay
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ewfay iendsfray. At'sthay atwhay eythay idday."

Ellway, Aymondray, ere'sthay away ewfay oblemspray ithway atthay
argumentway.

Irstfay ofway allway, anway adminway ancay opstay evenway
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isway alsoway importantway. Isthay isway anotherway ingthay
atthay Iway inkthay ouyay aymay isunderstandmay orway
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aymay ebay ackinglay itway.

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utbay earlyclay otay umptray authoritarianway otivesmay ybay
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ouyay eingbay away olltray. EDQAY.

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iendsfray andway amilyfay"? Onay. Ornay oday Iway understandway
ywhay ouyay ouldway inkthay atthay Iway avehay ethay owerpay
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ethay administratorway owhay onglywray annedbay emay. Andway
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ometimessay, isway otay owgray upway.
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eythay ancay oday IPWAY ansscay andway investigationway andway
indfay ettypray uchmay everythingway aboutway everyway oneway
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oremay ikelylay eythay illway ebay ableway otay indfay ingsthay
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eoplepay orfay ogentcay activityway. Ethay ironiesway ustjay
ountmay.

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ugplay, RCAY ouldway ebay underway uchsay intenseway utinyscray
, atthay OBODYNAY ouldway eelfay eefray otay eakspay eirthay
indsmay.)"

Ichwhay isway eciselypray ywhay ouryay ehaviorbay isway osay
oxiousnay andway againstway operpray expressionway, arfay
umpingtray ouryay ownway illegitimateway experienceway.

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ediamay orfay ouyay oday otnay ustifyjay adbay administrationway
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eatecray ouryay ownway orumfay orway itesay, ossiblypay evenway
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away ertaincay egreeday ofway eewaylay otay akemay andardsstay
ofway ehaviorbay andway ontentcay andway otay anbay osethay
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"ISTHAY isway atwhay asway oneday otay emay. Isway ymay osenay
orfay ironyway eallyray atthay eenkay, atthay I'mway ethay
onlyway oneway owhay ancay eesay itway? I'mway oinggay otay
ypetay isthay extnay itbay eallyray owlyslay: EYTHAY eventedpray
EMAY omfray ostingpay, ooooooooooooosay ymay onlyway ecourseray
asway otay aysay "Excuseway emay, utbay ifway ouyay on'tday
allowway emay otay ostpay, I'llway oday atthay ichwhay isway
inway ymay owerpay otay owshay ouyay owhay itway eelsfay otay
otnay ebay allowedway otay ostpay." It'sway ethay onlyway
optionway Iway adhay. Ilewhay Iway elievebay inway eefray
eechspay onway ethay internetway, orgivefay emay ifway Iway
on'tday edshay away eartay atway ethay ospectpray ofway osethay
owhay oday OTNAY elievebay inway eefray eechspay eingbay
ensoredcay. Osethay owhay AIMCLAY otay elievebay inway eefray
eechspay, utbay eanmay eefray eechspay onlyway orfay
emselvesthay andway otnay othersway, areway uchmay esslay
eservingday ofway atthay ightray."

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iggerbay anmay andway utpay itway ownday. Akemay away ewnay
accountway andway ehavebay accordingway otay ethay ulesray ofway
ethay orumfay. ONAY ONEWAY EVERWAY ESERVESDAY OTAY EBAY
EPRIVEDDAY OFWAY ETHAY IGHTRAY OTAY EEFRAY EECHSPAY. Ybay ouryay
ogiclay, Epublicansray andway Azisnay ouldcay ebay eprivedday
ofway eirthay ightsray otay eefray eechspay andway usticejay.
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Omskychay andway Andray agreeway onway isthay, Istpay, itway
isway ATEGORICALCAY. ONAY ONEWAY isway eprivedday ofway ethay
ightsray atthay areway ovidedpray. Asway Omskychay utspay itway
, Alinstay andway Itlerhay ereway orfay eefray eechspay eythay
ikedlay.

"Inallyfay, e'reway upway otay ouryay irstfay entencesay.
Objectivistsway andway Iberertarianslay arelyray eesay eyeway
otay eyeway (Objectivistsway aimclay atthay Ibertaranslay "
olestay" ethay ideaway ofway eedomfray omfray emthay. ) Andway
ofway oursecay, eithernay Objectivistsway ornay Ibertarianslay
uffersay Ascistsfay adlyglay. Andway Ascistsfay atehay
everybodyway."

Ou'reyay okingjay, ightray? Aynway Andray escribesday away
ystemsay ofway arketmay usticejay andway ersonalpay ightsray
atthay, etherwhay orway otnay anway individualway ibertarianlay
eftlay orway ightray isagreesday ithway itway (Iway uresay asway
ellhay oday), isway ullyfay inway inelay ithway
ibertarianismlay. Otherway Objectivistway ilosophiesphay areway
eryvay uchmay antiway-ibertarianlay... asway antiway-
ibertarianlay asway urningtay otay ethay IFBAY otay epressray
others'WAY eechspay ecausebay ouyay on'tday ikelay atwhay eythay
aysay onway eirthay ownway oardbay atthay eythay utpay eirthay
ownway effortway andway imetay otay unray.

"Iway aven'thay eatenedthray otay utshay RCAY ownday. Againway,
Iway on'tday owknay ywhay ouyay ouldway endowway emay ithway
uchsay uperpowerssay. Iway onlyway eatenedthray otay ingbray
RCAY otay ethay attentionway ofway osethay ypetay ofway eoplepay
owhay ikelay otay utshay esethay ypestay ofway ingsthay ownday
. Andway onlyway atthay, IFWAY Iway asn'tway allowedway otay
ostpay erethay, ustjay ikelay everyoneway elseway owhay
abidesway ybay ethay ulesray."

"Iway idn'tday ootshay imhay, officerway, Iway ustjay iredhay
omeonesay elseway otay oday itway!"

Actuallyway, Aymondray, Iway ouldway espectray ouyay OREMAY
ifway ouyay andledhay ethay oblempray ourselfyay. Ethay actfay
atthay ouyay urntay otay atestay epressionray andway enthay
ytray otay ashway ouryay andshay ofway itway isway ethay
OBLEMPRAY. On'tday everway aimclay ou'reyay away ibertarianlay
ifway ouyay allcay ethay opscay ecausebay ouryay eelingsfay
areway urthay.

"OBODYNAY owhay ostspay erethay antsway RCAY otay ebay utshay
ownday. Againway, I'veway eenbay inway ontactcay ithway omesay
eryvay ensiblesay eoplepay owhay agreeway atthay avinghay away
issingpay atchmay isway illysay enwhay eway eallyray allway
ustjay antway ethay amesay ingthay: otay ebay ableway otay
iscussday ourway opinionsway inway away ibrantvay onlineway
ommunitycay onway opicstay ichwhay interestway usway allway.
Erethay areway omesay echnicaltay issuesway etyay otay ebay
ammeredhay outway, andway erethay isway omesay oncerncay
aboutway owhay omesay ofway ethay olksfay owhay ereway
esponsibleray orfay ettinggay emay unfairlyway annedbay inway
ethay irstfay aceplay illway espondray otay ymay eturnray."

Antasticfay. Enthay utpay ownday ethay igbay epressiveray
ickstay andway andlehay itway ivatelypray. Akemay ompromisescay
. Istenlay. Actuallyway utpay ouryay oneymay erewhay ouryay
outhmay isway. Ibertylay isway ardhay. Usticejay isway ardhay.
Itway equiresray espectingray otherway eople'spay atitudelay.

"Osay ouyay eesay, erethay isway onay eednay atway ethay
omentmay otay ebay overlyway oncernedcay ithway emay arryingcay
outway ymay eatthray anywayway. I'mway onfidentcay atthay inway
ethay endway, eedomfray illway evailpray---itway usuallyway
oesday inway ethay onglay unray. "

Itlerhay ouldcay avehay aidsay atthay. Eithernay ouyay orway
Iway ouldway espectray atthay answerway ithway away esponseray.
Ethay allacyfay isway obviousway: Ouryay individualway
ontributioncay againstway eedomfray, onay attermay owhay allsmay
orway unsuccessfulway, isway ongwray.

Ouyay enthay AREDAY otay otequay Iemollernay, ignoringway atthay
OUYAY areway ethay oneway yingtray otay etgay ethay Ewsjay
otshay.

Ybay ethay ayway, Aymondray... Iway oposedpray ethay itletay,
Objectivistway Eonay-Ascistfay, otay Ieterpay. Ere'shay ywhay.
Ouyay advocateway eefray eechspay ilewhay urningtay otay
epressionray otay epriveday itway. Ironicallyway echoingway
ethay eryvay ypocrisyhay ouyay aysay ouldshay epriveday ouyay
ofway eefray eechspay. OUYAY OURSELFYAY AVEHAY ODUCEDPRAY ETHAY
USTIFICATIONJAY ORFAY OURYAY ANBAY. Ouryay interlocutorsway
oldhay esslay extremeway eefray eechspay ositionspay anthay
ouyay oday, erethay isway onay ypocrisyhay exceptway atthay
ouyay expressway. (Iway, incidentallyway, oldhay uchmay oremay
extremeway, andway onsistentcay, onesway.)

[somedude]

LMAO gal4!!!

[Emily Johnson]

Originally Posted by gal4

Brek's reply translated into Pig Latin.

Someone has way to much time on her hands! Let's meet up and hunt Somedude!