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Old 04-17-2017, 02:50 PM   #41
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Well, every Papist since the reign of Henry VIII has been overly obsessed with bringing England back in to the fold. Are you surprised if we get a little bit punchy about our independence?
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Old 04-18-2017, 09:53 AM   #42
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[ATTACH]32882[/ATTACH

Unionist's have their panties in a twist over McGuiness's headstone. There is an inscription in Irish which in English reads

"Volunteer Martin McGuiness"
"Irish Republican Army"

He never denied it in life, why should he in death?
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Old 04-18-2017, 12:58 PM   #43
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Why should he indeed?
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Old 04-18-2017, 05:25 PM   #44
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He admitted it while alive, no point lying about it on his final judgement day.
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Old 04-18-2017, 06:41 PM   #45
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What has the unionists in an uproar is that they for the most part ignored McGuinnes's IRA past while he was deputy First Minister. That worked out fairly well for everyone, significant progress was achieved.

Apparently they were thinking something a little less provacative, statesman, peace maker, loyal subject of her majesty the queen (ok, that's a bit of a stretch)

Instead they got IRA volunteer.

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Old 04-19-2017, 05:14 PM   #46
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I gotta admire his honesty and defiance even in death.
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Old 04-23-2017, 11:14 AM   #47
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Well, looks like the "real" IRA are seeking to blow up school kids in Belfast now.
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Old 04-23-2017, 12:56 PM   #48
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Apparently the target was the PSNI, but you're correct it was placed in close proximity to a school. Its been over twenty years since the Provisionals ceased operations, most of these people never had any connection with the actual IRA. they have very limited, localized support. They don't have any of the middle east or European contacts of the provos, nor to do they have the fundraising or weapons procurement network of the provos in the US. The leadership of the IRA is either dead, gone into politics, or become dedicated capitalists(smugglers)

That the bomb was placed in Ardoyne shows they don't even have any regard for the people they claim to represent. Ardoyne is a heavily nationalist area
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Old 04-23-2017, 03:23 PM   #49
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I am aware that Ardoyne is a nationalist area. I am also aware that "real" and "continuity" IRA activities have been focussed on targeting Catholics, particularly those serving as police or prison officers. These are probably remnants of the gangsterish fundraising arm of the IRA, who would benefit most from a lawless community.

Yes, I accept that these people are not representative of any desire for a united Ireland. Still, I refuse to accept that any incarnation of the provisional Irish republican army was representative of any thing but their own military and political goals.

I'd be open to seeing any evidence that even in the most staunchly republican areas of Ulster that the IRA ruled by any thing but fear, or that there was any support in the Irish Republic for bringing the Six Counties in to the Republics fold.

The Provisional IRA were only ever gangsters and terrorists, with funding from some of the worlds most despicable sources (American Irish Catholics, Ghaddafi, Soviet Union, need I go on?) They survived mostly because they were able to terrorise the communities in which they operated, much like the Taliban in Afghanistan, or the department of revenues and customs in the United Kingdom.
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Old 04-23-2017, 04:52 PM   #50
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I've been clear in this and other threads that I won't condone all of what the IRA has done. But are you really so naive to believe that the changes that have taken place in Northern Ireland would have happened without the armed struggle? Nationalist tried the peaceful civil rights protest way and got the dog snot beaten out them for their trouble. As to support, they did have it, the bogside, South Armagh and parts of west Belfast were virtually off limits to the security forces for extended periods of time.
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Old 04-23-2017, 05:04 PM   #51
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As to Ghaddafi, sure he was a barking fucking lunatic, but he offered boat loads of AK 47s and RPGs, so they say no thanks, we can't accept those, you are not a nice man. The enemy of my enemy of my is my friend
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Old 04-23-2017, 05:25 PM   #52
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The Soviet Union never had any contact with the Provos, they favored the Marxist official IRA, later replaced by the INLA
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Old 04-24-2017, 01:51 PM   #53
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Would things have changed in Northern Ireland without the Provisional IRA? We can only speculate. However, we can look to South Africa, Eastern Europe, even southern states of the USA for clues. There, movements that used varying degrees of lawful and unlawful protest, violence, were all suppressed, but in the end won through.

It wasn't just Irish nationalists that wanted change in Ulster.

Taking your comment about Derry, South Armagh and West Belfast. You are probably aware that these weren't the only no-go areas for police during the 1980s and 90s. Whilst there may well have been hostility towards British rule and military presence in those places, does that actually translate to support for terror and violence? Did the people who wanted troops out of Northern Ireland also automatically support knee-cappings, beatings, murder and bombing?

Did the people of places like Brixton, Tottenham, Toxteth, North East Bristol, that feared and loathed the police, also support drug dealers and other criminals that made it almost impossible for the law to operate in such places?

If you ask me, for decades, between the man them and the terrorists and criminals, people in many of our poorest inner city areas were pretty fucking stitched up. If they were allowed to say what they really thought without fear of getting the shit kicked out of them or worse, they would probably have been as happy to see the IRA and yardie gangs fuck of as they would the army and police.
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Old 04-25-2017, 12:48 PM   #54
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I can't really disagree with much in your post.

There are differences from the distrust of the police in inner cities in the UK, or the US though. The police force is question was not the PSNI, but the Royal Ulster Constabulary. Before the troubles, the average Nationalist had no interaction with the British Army, but they knew very well what to expect from the RUC. They may have functioned as a normal police force in the unionist areas, but in the nationalist areas they were a heavily armed para military force who were brought into existence after partition to control the nationalist minority. There was not even a pretense of even handed law enforcement. Their auxiliary force, the "B-Specials, were even worse. The government basically emptied the local Orange lodges, armed them to the teeth, and turned them loose. Small wonder then the IRA became the de facto police force for the nationalist population. You are probably correct that most people wished that did not have the IRA or the RUC, but given the reality of the situation, most did choose the IRA

And I will also concede that the silence of many concerning the activities of the IRA stemmed from fear of retribution, mostly it was the deeply rooted loathing of the informer in the Irish psyche. While the average person may been ambivalent at best to the IRA, you didn't give up one of your own to the Sassenach.

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Old 04-25-2017, 01:09 PM   #55
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back to the present, latest predictions for the 18 Ulster seats, DUP 8, Sinn Fein 5, SDLP, 3,UUP 1, independent Unionist 1
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Old 04-25-2017, 06:52 PM   #56
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My grandparents came here from Ireland. I'm second generation born in the US (I was born in 1980). I grew up owning a hat that was green and yellow with a picture of Mickey Mouse holding up his middle finger and it said "Hey New England, Happy St. Patrick's Day." My family hated the English so much that they also hated New Englanders. Every male in my family has been the Grand Marshal in our city's St. Pats parade. I once dated an Italian and my grandparents didn't talk to me for almost 2 years. YET, no one on my family supported the actions of the IRA. They've been responsible for over 10,000 bombs, and thousands of lives lost. (Surprisingly the US never banned the Irish from coming here during the decades of the 60's-90's though).Then once he left the IRA, changed from "rebel to peacemaker," it was more like he turned rat and sold out. The Irish are all split about his passing and especially about his life. Personally, I think both sides are correct about him, but the most egregious of his acts happened while with the IRA. As much as I supported/support Ireland's independence from Britain, I could never support an organization that by all accounts and definitions were the modern age's first terrorist group. Bombing people and shit just doesn't work. If it did then the US would rule the world by now.
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Old 04-25-2017, 08:20 PM   #57
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The" I hate New Englanders" is a first for me, especially given the large Irish American population there. Your green Mickey mouse hat might not be well received in South Boston on St. Patricks day.

I don't believe the Irish hate the English, at least the vast majority do not. Most of them probably wish the English had kept to their own side of the Irish sea, but, hate, no.

I was in Ireland a few times at the height of the Troubles, saw loads of English tourists, they were as well received as anyone else.

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Old 04-26-2017, 11:21 AM   #58
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I've been reading up on this. Apparently the British army were welcomed by the Nationalists during their civil rights marches which were attacked by the police and Unionists in 1969/70. But once the army started targetting Nationalist areas for raids and curfews that were not applied to Unionists, the mood changed. Internment of only Nationalists was a real shot in the foot by the ruling establishment, as was Bloody Sunday. The setting up of the UDR (82% of the members were Protestants) and the way they abused and assaulted Nationalists was absolutely fuel for the fire, ensuring that many young Catholics lined up to join the Provisional IRA.
I have to wonder how the British got it so wrong. They seem to have really made a mess of the whole region.
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Old 04-28-2017, 02:56 AM   #59
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bu5gqwIOQJs

After having a few I was surfing you tube. I like this song, it speaks to how hard it is to ever truly end the divisions in northern Ireland. while Sinead is tilted toward the republican side, no doubt similar scenes were taking place up the Shankill.

Given what a few generations of kids grew up with, the progress made is truly remarkable.

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Old 04-28-2017, 08:43 AM   #60
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Grants. That is a one sided interpretation of how it went badly wrong. Yes, troops were originally sent to protect Catholic communities. Yes, it did quickly turn in to a fight between the IRA and the British Army.

You may have heard of Bloody Sunday? Basically, peaceful protesters were shot, some killed, by troops. However, it is not clear cut. The are alkegations that men were seen with guns and pipe bombs amongst the protesters. Orders were given to open fire, and the rest is history.

Bloody Sunday has never properly been investigated, and it is some thing that festers like a sore between the various interests. It is just one example of how relations deteriorated very quickly. It was not however entirely down to the actions of British military and government. The IRA saw their oppirtunity to fight a real war, and took it.
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