RB & Prejudice

[FuckingRotter]

(+) "Fuck the German bastards. Thanks for your post."

[Sternenlied]

It seems I'll have to be the spoilsport again.

(+) "Fuck the German bastards. Thanks for your post."

While I certainly have no intention to regularize what our members tell each other in the confinements of their privacy - PMs, rep comments, etc. - RB should be a place of tolerance and I will not allow any such pulic display of racism.

Sentiments of that ilk, accompanied by positive reputation, is repulsive and has no place on RB. If you feel that way keep it where it belongs but off the forum.

[HRH1948]

Originally Posted by Sternenlied

It seems I'll have to be the spoilsport again.


While I certainly have no intention to regularize what our members tell each other in the confinements of their privacy - PMs, rep comments, etc. - RB should be a place of tolerance and I will not allow any such pulic display of racism.

Sentiments of that ilk, accompanied by positive reputation, is repulsive and has no place on RB. If you feel that way keep it where it belongs but off the forum.

I hate to counter the Poet Laureate here. But, I saw the remark as being simply crass and narrow minded. Bigotry or racism never entered my mind. German being a racist term seems to be stretching the definition. It seems to have more of a nationalistic flavor.

Respectfully,

HRH

[HRH1948]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Well, I will also respectfully counter this. I wholeheartedly agree that "German" by itself is certainly NOT a racist word. I would contend though that when you add "Fuck" and "bastards" to that equation, that's when it becomes a racial or prejudicial issue.

Upon reading the original remark, I too was quite surprised that anyone would send that out, let alone you sir.

I can only guess, that this is what my colleague was referencing when she rightfully made her objection to it.

Please replace the word "German" with "American", "British" or "Canadian".

Is it still a racial remark? It definitely displays nationalistic prejudice, but it simply doesn't sound racist. Like the United States, Germany is a multi-racial country.

In closing, I am not the author of the rep point message and I am a bit disappointed that you would assume so.

Respectfully,

HRH

[HRH1948]

Phantom has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her.

If you are trying to send this message to multiple recipients, remove Phantom from the recipient list and send the message again.

(+) Interesting topic

(+) Many thx for your great threads and endless updates

(+) Thanks for the rep, at least I can have an adult discussion over this, even if neither of us are going to change our minds.

(+) Thats certainly different

(+) Same to you. thanks for your effort

[batffink]

With great respect to all, and I really mean this, I think that we are all becoming infected with the political correctness bug.
Let us all stand back and take another look at this without getting too precious about the whole affair. This after all is the Rowdy Room and as the old saying goes, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
FuckingRotter is stating his opinion in his normal straightforward way and if any one doesn't agree with it - tough shit.
We are all adults here and this isn't Disneyland. We should be able to express our opinions as we do in the real world. The last thing I want to see on RB is PC censorship. No more Irish jokes, no more Jewish jokes, no more digs at Scots, Americans, Germans, Catholics et al. For fuck's sakes get a life all of you.

[Sternenlied]

Sorry but this isn't right.

This is the Rowdy Room indeed, this thread itself is not intended to allow any kind of insulting. No matter ... please, don't give me the "politcal correctness"-routine as you certainly know I am not a fan of PC. Not the freedom of opinion either.

Remember some time ago? When ezzdx said something against Jews?
Everybody jumped him because he was generally disliked. Where's the difference?
Or when I said I wasn't grieving for poor America because of 9/11? Similar reaction ...
Or ... there are numerous instances.

"Fuck the American bastards" by someone like ezzdx would have caused a completely different reaction.

Oh no ... nobody DARE talking about PC or freedom of speech. It usually only applies when you (everyone) agrees and/or likes the person in question. I however don't care.

Someone wants to talk about being adults ... adults should be able to converse without resorting to insults at all. Fun is one thing but remarks like that certainly aren't "jokes" anymore.

If you consider speaking against open racism censorship well ... "though shit" - as you so eloquently put it. There is a line and I've head it. Just try me!

[HRH1948]

For the record:

Main Entry: prej•u•dice

Pronunciation: \ˈpre-jə-dəs\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin praejudicium previous judgment, damage, from prae- + judicium judgment — more at JUDICIAL
Date: 13th century

1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims

2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

Main Entry: rac•ism

Pronunciation: \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\
Function: noun
Date: 1933

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

For the record:

Fucking Rotter simply posted one of his positive rep messages. I read it and knew the context of the thread that generated it. Strong nationalistic feelings were stirred by that thread.

Stern read the same message and used the word “racism” to describe it. I do not believe there is a German race any more than I believe that everyone in Israel is Jewish. Even though I found the rep point remark “crass” and “narrow minded”, I grow weary of the “race card” being overplayed. I pointed out that it was nationalistic prejudice and not racism. I did this in a polite and thoughtful manner. In fact, there was a “Poet Laureate” compliment contained in my post.

Please note that racism and prejudice are defined differently. Yes, racial prejudice does exist, but there are also a variety of other prejudices including but not limited to examples such a national prejudice, intellectual prejudice and political prejudice.

Some time ago the rules of the Rowdy Room were changed, but the tagline, “Do not enter unless you want to be insulted!” wasn’t changed to “Do not enter unless you want to be insulted or you are a moderator!" Being rather outspoken, I have made a conscience effort to steer clear of the Rowdy Room. Apparently, I was not alone. Attendance here has sharply dropped. Only very recently, I decided to try the waters again.

It would seem that the tagline needs to be altered again. “Do not enter unless you want to be insulted or you are a moderator! Do not point out any mistake made by a moderator and leave your racist views and prejudices at the door.”

This is unfortunate. I recall “having a problem” with the gay rape thread. I mentioned my dilemma in the Rowdy Room and members here helped me through work through that prejudice and helped me resolve a flaw in my character. Alas, at my age there is a tendency to remember the "Good Olde Days".

[Distinctprey]

I do not support any sort of racism.

[somedude]

Bigotry is something that is not tolerated even in the Rowdy Room!

[HRH1948]

It is obvious that further discussion will bear no fruit worth having.

I grow weary of the unabashed misuse of the language and its subsequent defense based upon misguided emotion.

My posts weren't a defense of the original remark. But, I also grow weary of the "race card" and a political correctness that corrects nothing but allows people to carefully put their prejudices into an easily accessed closet. Nothing is resolved.

I grow weary of unwarranted attacks and being without the legal means to respond in a warranted fashion.

When facts only serve to confuse, it is time to retire from the conversation.

Respectfully,

HRH

[pervipete]

I have a question, what post was the rep for? I pressume it for was one in the 'War Crimes By RAF' thread.

I only ask because we are judging without knowing the context, or the intent.

[Sternenlied]

What post the comment was for isn't the issue.
The comment itself isn't the issue either. I already stated in my initial post members are free to express every opinions in the confine of their privacy.

Publicly posting it however, showing everyone a comment like that was given, related to positive reputation however is a clear indication of proudness and appreciation.

HRH might call it "misguided emotion" and a "misuse of language" when I call that "racism" but in his last post he has clearly proven to be incapable of making an actual, sound argument, thus invalidating the entire post.

Apparently, HRH, you feel hindered by the oppression of our totalitarian system, denying you the "legal means" for a warranted answer ...

You accuse me (us) of purposely "blurring" reality and imposing my (our) opinions on you and everyone else while you hide behind semantics, dictionary definitions and unrelated arguments.

However ... I didn't delete the comment, I didn't take any action against FuckingRotter or the poster of that comment now did I? I simply stated there would be no display of racism allowed on RB (whether you consider it to be racism or not).

Further discussion will "bear no fruit worth having" - condescending in the loveliest of ways - and I am operating based on misguided emotions?

[HRH1948]

Originally Posted by Sternenlied

What post the comment was for isn't the issue.
The comment itself isn't the issue either. I already stated in my initial post members are free to express every opinions in the confine of their privacy.

Publicly posting it however, showing everyone a comment like that was given, related to positive reputation however is a clear indication of proudness and appreciation.

HRH might call it "misguided emotion" and a "misuse of language" when I call that "racism" but in his last post he has clearly proven to be incapable of making an actual, sound argument, thus invalidating the entire post.

Apparently, HRH, you feel hindered by the oppression of our totalitarian system, denying you the "legal means" for a warranted answer ...

You accuse me (us) of purposely "blurring" reality and imposing my (our) opinions on you and everyone else while you hide behind semantics, dictionary definitions and unrelated arguments.

However ... I didn't delete the comment, I didn't take any action against FuckingRotter or the poster of that comment now did I? I simply stated there would be no display of racism allowed on RB (whether you consider it to be racism or not).

Further discussion will "bear no fruit worth having" - condescending in the loveliest of ways - and I am operating based on misguided emotions?

Stern,

My intention was to withdraw from this conversation, but you have manipulated me into yet another post.

The truly sad part of all of this is that I agree with your feelings regarding racism, bigotry and prejudice.

Even though, I am carrying around a lot of German DNA, I most strongly disagree that “Fuck the German Bastards” is a racial slur. It is bigoted and prejudiced, but it is not racism. It is also narrow minded and crass.

I originally came to this board feeling pretty good about myself. I posted about a hundred or so films when I started noticing “the gay rape thread” being always posted next to mine. That bothered me. I went to the Rowdy Room and explained my dilemma. Suggestions came pouring in. Then, Sparks showed me the light. I saw myself in the prejudice that he displayed. I felt ashamed. Thus, that shame helped me overcome my prejudice. I actually thanked him for his post and as I recall, gave him a plus rep.

I am from a part of the world where prejudice, bigotry and racism have had a perfect breeding ground for almost 200 years. It is a constant fight that must be met with self awareness and an absolute demand for accuracy and truth. One mistake in any of these requisites results in the dark forces of racism, bigotry and prejudice winning the day. I’ve seen that happen too many times. Additionally, when emotion enters the discussion, all is lost.

During WWII, I had relatives in Dresden, Berlin and Prague. I had a great uncle that was a SS officer. I had an uncle that was with Patton’s 3rd Army. I had a grandfather that was very much involved with the KKK. Racism is easily identified and defined.

As far as my hiding behind semantics, I haven’t hidden behind anything since 1971. Semantics is not a four letter word. With the multiple first languages on this board, the accuracy of our semantics is vital to understanding.

Stern, you used the wrong word. It’s that simple. Again, bigotry or prejudice would have worked and gone un-noticed. If you are going to go on a crusade, get your vocabulary in order. Otherwise, you will be lumped in and identified with the politically correct crowd.

Until your last post, I felt that our discussion was just that. I understood Phantom’s entrance and subsequent harshness to be an un-warranted and unreasonable attack without justification. Quite frankly, I am still bothered by the actions of someone that I call a friend. He continues to misjudge me and I am most disappointed.

In closing, it is my belief that absolute respect to the totalitarian moderators of this board is a required and necessary demand. However, when a moderator enters a discussion in the Rowdy Room, he or she should become just another member with an opinion. Otherwise, he or she should simply stay out or possibly serve as a referee. Finally, the threat of a ban by a moderator in disagreement with a peasant member in the Rowdy Room seems absurd bordering on ludicrous.

With respect,

HRH

[FuckingRotter]

Good grief, wait until The World Cup starts. Especially if France qualify....

[batffink]

Upon reflection, I realise that my advice in my last post "Get a life" was arrogant and unnecessary.

I hereby publicly and without reservation apologise to Phantom, Stern, HRH48 and FuckingRotter for the statement. It was uncalled for and crass.

For some time now I have not been happy with the political correctness exhibited on this board and the corporate unhappiness with anyone who "steps out of line" by saying what he (or her) thinks whether it be PC or "racism"

I am not a racist but I speak my mind when I feel it necessary. If that is not acceptable to the Mods, then I feel that I can not post anything else in the Rowdy room. I refuse to be censored when I feel that racism is not my aim or intent. I am old enough to remember when PC was unheard of and a spade was called a spade.

In my honest opinion FR was not exhibiting overt racism.

I am further sorry that Phantom is thinking of retiring from the board. he has been a great Mod and has been very popular with the majority of members as well as being a friend to me. It is unfortunate that he feels that resignation is warranted. I always believed that when the going gets tough, the tough get going. I would sincerely and seriously like him to reconsider.

This will be my last post in the Rowdy Room as long as the present nanny restrictions prevail.

My regards to all.

[Sternenlied]

How exactly did I manipulate you into making yet another post?
You stated any further discussion would be useless so how did I force your hand into hitting the Reply button, typing your message and pushing the Post button?

I don't carry any German DNA and yet I still think it's a racial remark. Whether you agree or not is of no concern to me. In your opinion the use of the term "racist" is wrong since you do not believe in the existence of a German race anymore.

According to the United Nations:

Originally Posted by UN

The term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

Now, of course your can open another long argument about the difference between "racism" and "racial discimination" as well as the relevance in this case. I however see a basis here and if you disagree, well, to quote batffink once more: "tough shit".

If you as wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment as such as you claim to do why create an entire debate based on semantics? What are you proposing?
It's not "racism" but bigotry and nationalistic slurs ... calling "Fuck the [insert any nationality] bastards" certainly goes beyond "prejudice" ... thus making it perfectly alright to use them?
If you feel you have to "notice" my inappropriate use of the term "racism" - as so perceived by you - and start a huge argument about it I cannot see the supposed agreement with the overall sentiment at all.

Are you saying had I said "Bigotry will not be tolerated on RB" there wouldn't have been any such debate? Don't fool yourself. And don't try fooling others as well. People would cry wolf (in this case "censorship") just the same. People left RB because they felt censored when we banned underage content...

Now if you like to "lump me in" with any crowd because you disagree with me, please, feel free to do so. You wouldn't be the first to do so and it wouldn't be the first time for me either.

If you feel attacked and disappointed by Phantom however maybe you should have a talk with him, that's not my business, you're both old enough to settle this without your mother having to call his mother.

Who threatened whom with a ban however? You should consider being (mis-) guided by your own emotions now. Interpreting someone else's words can be quite tricky after all, especially when these nasty emotions come into play.

Well then ... if you feel I have "manipulated" you into another post, please, humour me.

[sindyloo]

PLEASE! Before this topic gets to Heated and causes members who were close friends to become enemys!

Please, as there are too many close members that this topic may bring irreparble harm too!

Put it nicely.......we dont need this here! So pretty please can we close this topic and go back to nicer things?!

Thank You ALL!

[Sternenlied]

Well, you might be right.

Maybe we should stop here before this turns into an avalanche nobody can stop.

Everything has been said by now I suppose.

[HRH1948]

I used to enjoy coming here to read the banter and watch my rough and rowdy friends have fun with each other. I enjoyed many debates and I have learned a great deal. I’ve made some terrific friends and a few of them haven’t been banned yet.

However, it has stopped being enjoyable. Watching some noble or another having a bad day abuse one or more of his peasants, just isn’t fun.

Therefore, I will join my Scottish friend and go to a self imposed exile until a Magna Carta Libertatum is adopted.

And, remember to be politically correct and think green. Whoever is the last to leave, turn out the light.

With respect to all,

HRH