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Old 01-08-2018, 07:48 PM   #541
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I don't attach the same sancity to a bomb dropped from an airplane that many do. What was the military target in Dresden? Or did all those German children have swastikas festooned on their cribs, or stitched into their nappies?
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Old 01-09-2018, 01:33 AM   #542
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In Dresden they made crockery for the Reich. It was a perfectly legitimate target as we were at war.

I don't recall Manchester declaring war on the Irish.
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Old 01-09-2018, 04:46 AM   #543
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In Dresden they made crockery for the Reich. It was a perfectly legitimate target as we were at war.

I don't recall Manchester declaring war on the Irish.
Just so we are clear, if you perceive your cause to be just, then the incineration of women and children on a mass scale is justified?
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Old 01-09-2018, 05:52 AM   #544
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The Luftwaffe killed 40 000 civilians in the Britain during WWII, but nobody whines very much about that. That was how war was fought then. The cause was certainly just, although I have long held the opinion that the real enemy lay beyond Germany. I would say the Dresden bombing was more necessary than justified. I suppose Germany sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind.

By the way, urban regeneration was already planned and well underway in Manchester when the IRA exploded a 1500kg bomb on Corporation Street in 1996. The first phase of the Metrolink that joined Bury in the north through to Victoria Station on the northern fringe of the city centre, right past the Arndale, down to Piccadilly Gardens, on to Piccadilly Station on the south end, and finally ending up in Altrincham via Stretford, where the other Arndale Centre is. The second phase to Eccles via Salford Quays was already in planning, and the whole network was planned with expansion in mind. At that time Salford Quays, formerly Salford Docks was already undergoing development after the docks were closed in 1982.

Manchester has been transformed from a decaying manufacturing town in to a hugely popular sporting, leisure, entertainment and shopping destination. All the IRA did was make a bit more work in a small corner of the city centre. There are still pockets of poverty in the city, but mostly it is thriving today.

But for the IRA, Belfast may have benefitted from similar government and private investment. All they got instead was the Titanic visitors centre!
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Old 01-09-2018, 07:19 PM   #545
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Economic disruption was by design. One goal of any insurgency is to prevent normal political or economic activity. The IRA was able to do this. the impact on the nationalist population was minimal, given the discrimination in housing and employment rampant at the time. When shipbuilding, textiles and a few other industries were booming the nationalists were largely frozen out. No reason to think new investment would have benefitted them. The changes in fair employment and housing practices are more a result of the troubles than in spite of them.
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Old 01-09-2018, 07:49 PM   #546
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the bombing campaign against England was not without opposition within the republican movement. The primary reason those in favor was to demonstrate the IRA could strike anywhere at the time and place of their choosing. Any economic damage inflicted would be a bonus.

there was another theory that bombing England proper would only enrage the British public. Better to wait until the British public tired of watching British soldiers die to preserve Orange privilege.

Scotland and Wales were largely given a pass on bombings as they were Celtic countries. This was undeserved for the Scots as their units in the north had among the worst records of brutality towards civilians.

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Old 01-10-2018, 09:25 AM   #547
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I won't bore you with a lesson in in the social history of the United Kingdom in the late 20th century.

However, the urban regeneration that took place through the late 80s and continues today, a mixture of government and private money, was designed to tackle the exact type of inequality, discrimination and persecution that Irish Catholics were experiencing, as well as address the problems caused by a decline in industry in large urban areas.

Paddy wasn't the only one that had it hard. In fact I grew up in the second most affluent borough in the country, but the estate I was born on had 40% unemployment, and youth unemployment was at 70%. What does that tell you about the British class system? You didn't have to be Irish to experience political and economic neglect, persecution by the police. When I returned to the area to start further education, I was told in no uncertain terms that I had more chance of plaiting shit, than of finding a job when I finished my course, unless I moved! You could be discriminated against just for having the wrong postcode.

Changes in employment and housing in Ulster weren't because of the IRA, they were delayed by the IRA, because it would be insane for government and industry to put money in to a community in open armed revolt. Thanks to the likes of McGuinness, West Belfast and the Bogside are 20 years behind Moss Side and St Pauls.

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Economic disruption was by design. One goal of any insurgency is to prevent normal political or economic activity. The IRA was able to do this. the impact on the nationalist population was minimal, given the discrimination in housing and employment rampant at the time. When shipbuilding, textiles and a few other industries were booming the nationalists were largely frozen out. No reason to think new investment would have benefitted them. The changes in fair employment and housing practices are more a result of the troubles than in spite of them.
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Old 01-10-2018, 05:18 PM   #548
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Former IRA volunteer Martin McAllister, who was in the Maze at the time the Kingsmill killing took place disputes the suggestion that the massacre was not authorised by PIRA high command. From the BBC News website: "

Somebody in republicanism needs to stand up and say that too in regards to Kingsmills. It will give some relief perhaps to somebody like Alan Black."

Alan Black was the sole survivor of the attack but sustained 18 gunshot wounds.

Mr McAllister added: "We need to stand up and admit what it was we did, because we are doing it to ourselves. Almost everything that happened here over the past 40 years we have done to ourselves and unfortunately, we are still doing it.

"Saying that were not going back to the past; the argument about that doesn't hold water any more because we can never go back to the past; the electoral figures don't allow it any more.

"What needs to happen here is that somebody somewhere needs to make a decision and say we going to put our hands up: we did this."

A 'rogue' element

He rejected suggestions that it was a "rogue" element within the IRA which carried out the shooting.

"The people who actually carried out the deed that night; they would have been sent out. It was policy and it would have been policy at that time. Otherwise it would not have happened in that way.

"But somebody needs to clear this matter up, if only for the victims and survivors to give them some idea of what actually went on."



These words followed on from McAllister acknowledging that David Cameron, former UK priminister had acknowledged that what happened on Bloody Sunday was wrong. My interpretation is that he is acknowledging the harm that the IRA has done in Ulster.

McAllister ended his involvement in republicanism following the Kingsmill killings.
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Old 01-10-2018, 06:29 PM   #549
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So McAllister was in the H blocks at the time of the killings, and then left the movement. So I'm a bit
sceptical of how he knew what was and was not authorised.

Enniskillen, Guilford,Birmingham, Jean McConnville, the Shankill road bombing all involved civilians killed by IRA, and all were acknowledged. No one disputes the killers were IRA members, but I've seen nothing to convince me the shootings were authorised.

Not that it in any way justifies it, but Kingsmill was a revenge attack for the murders of the Reavy family by loyalists.

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Old 01-10-2018, 06:33 PM   #550
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Alan Black, the only survivor of Kingsmill, believes that IRA members involved in the massacre were double agents working for the British state.[46] He believes there was a "cover up" and that British security forces knew the massacre was going to happen but allowed it to. Karen Armstrong, sister of victim John McConville, said "A lot of people were being protected back then and they still are".[47] It has been suggested that the gunman with the English accent could have been British Intelligence officer Robert Nairac.[48] John Weir, a former RUC officer and member of the "Glenanne gang", claims he discovered that British Intelligence, through Nairac, was "playing republican and loyalist paramilitaries off against each other".[49]
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Old 01-10-2018, 09:07 PM   #551
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something a bit lighter. I laughed even though the joke was on us. Was watching interviews of Rangers and Celtic Fans.

A rangers fan said he spotted a Celtic supporter headed to the match with only one shoe.

" Here, you silly cunt, you've lost one of your shoes"

Celtic fan, " No, I've found one."
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Old 01-11-2018, 04:33 AM   #552
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Only according to a Wikipedia article, but some of the weapons used for the Kingsmill shooting are linked to dozens of IRA actions between 1974 and their seizure in 1990.


I agree there is some thing fishy about the whole thing, but I am inclined to believe science over the testimony of a man that was shot 18 times but had the ability not to flinch when a bullet grazed his head!
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Old 01-11-2018, 06:20 AM   #553
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Everyone accepts that the killers were members of the IRA, so they would have known the location of the IRA arms dumps in the area. The weapons used would have been pulled from one the arms caches and returned there after. So its not surprising the weapons were used in subsequent shootings. This does nothing to prove or disprove the central question of whether or not the shootings were authorized by anyone higher up.
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Old 01-11-2018, 07:32 AM   #554
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Intelligence from the time suggests the gang that carried out the Kingsmills shooting had recently been discliplined by their commanders for earlier sectarian killings.

When British soldiers defied standing orders not to chase rioters toward peaceful protesters, and then opened fire on the crowds, nobody renamed them the British Londonderry Volunteer Brigade, and tried to deny the British Army was responsible.

Just a thought.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:40 PM   #555
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Apples and oranges. Bloody Sunday occurred with the paras their under orders and supervised by their officers. I'll allow it doesn't rise to the level of deliberate murder.

Here's a better analogy, members of the parachute regiment leave their barracks after hours, obtain weapons without authorization, then stop a van full of nationalist civilians and murder them. Would you consider that a British army operation?
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:26 PM   #556
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They leave their barracks after hours, THEN obtain weapons? Clearly not a British Army operation. On the other hand if army discipline is so bad that the ranks are able to obtain weapons from the armoury and carry out operations outside of their orders, that is a problem with command.

There lies a weakness in how the IRA was organised. Seems to me that their armoury wasn't even particularly secure, and any old bastard could rock up and "join" the IRA by taking their weapons! I'd be tempted myself....
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:07 PM   #557
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IRA arms dumps were typically someone's barn or attic. A concrete pillbox with barbed wire and armed guard standing by sign " IRA armoury # 4, South Armagh Brigade" might have attracted some attention.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:29 PM   #558
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So volunteers get warned for carrying out unauthorised actions, but can still access weapons. Go team IRA!
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Old 01-13-2018, 02:30 PM   #559
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Arlene "the second most minging woman in British politics after Dianne Abbot" Foster has called for unity in Irish politics in a speech in Killarney today.

She emphasised that whilst the UK will always fight for UK interests, and that the Republic will fight for Irish interests, there are mutual areas of interest where both governments must work together.

This follows on from a suggestion earlier this week from Polands government that Poland and Ireland will work together to back the United Kingdom in trade talks with the European Union.
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Old 01-13-2018, 05:25 PM   #560
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Hard to argue with that. Obviously two countries that close have shared interests. Arlene apparently used a few Irish words and didn't spontaneously combust. Remarkable.
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