Martin McGuinness, RIP or rot in hell?

[grants70]

Originally Posted by tom8517

I'm a little suprised that hasn't happened already. The British government wasn't shy about doing it in Ireland. Internment without charge or trial, the special criminal courts, the SAS turned loose with shoot on sight orders...

Yes but would they do all that on the mainland? It's one thing to do it in an occupied country (or part of) to prop or perpetuate up a loyalist state, but to do all that in say England or the countries physically attached to it like Scotland and Wales might not be acceptable to the general population there.

[tom8517]

Internment in 2017 is unrealistic. And that's probably a good thing. I'm not really that familiar with the restrictions the police in the UK for electronic surveillance or rules governing searches, but it would seem reasonable to give the police a bit more leeway.

[FuckingRotter]

Successive governments have tinkered with police powers so often, it's hard to keep track unless one is actually interested!

As far as I know, police have the power to stop and search people in the street. Not particularly useful in terms of this thread.

A permit is required for electronic surveillance, or to enter a premises in order to search for evidence. Police do not require a permit to enter a premises if a criminal act is being committed that requires the protecting of life or property. So burglaries, assault, that type of thing. They can't just walk in if you're smoking a spliff, or making a bomb.

I don't know how all this works for the secret services and special forces. I suspect if you're in the SAS or SBS, you're just going to follow orders, and hope you don't end up facing criminal charges some where down the line. Actually, knowing what I know about the SAS, they probably wouldn't even bother with hope, or worry!

I don't see internment happening here either. Frankly, I don't think our political class has the stomach for this fight, and we are in serious danger of losing it.

[tom8517]

Back to the feuds, two recent prominent killings, one loyalist, one republican.

The loyalist, UDA man Colin Horner apparently as a result of a dispute inside the Antrim UDA. His family and friends all lamenting that he had changed his ways, had left violence behind, wanted nothing more than raise his family in peace. I doubt it. Whoever ordered his murder wouldn't have brought the heat to their organization that a high profile public shooting has, just to get rid of someone who was no longer involved. Still there were no broader political implications to Horner's death.

The republican, Kevin McGuigan has potentially much more serious ramifications. McGuigan had a long history in the IRA, did a stretch in Long Kesh and was responsible for a number of killings when the IRA decided to eliminate the drug trade in the nationalist areas. At some point Mcguigan went badly off the rails, maybe prison and a life of more or less constant violence will do that. He tried to set up up his own little fiefdom in Short Strand, starting scaring the hell out of his neighbors, even killing one of their dogs for barking too loud. He ignored repeated warnings to reign his behavior in, wound up getting a knee capping.

He blamed one of his former comrades, Jock Davidson, who wound up dead. Now, whats interesting is that all this brought to light was that it wasn't the rather inept real or continuity IRA, but the Provisionals, who were supposed to no longer exist.

Apparently after killing Davidson, the leadership of the Belfast IRA learned that McGuigan was staking out other senior republicans homes. Not surprisingly, this news was not well received and the order was given to kill McGuigan.

The news that the Provos had not in fact gone away sent the Unionists all up in flames, this combined with the RHI scandal is what brought down power sharing.

[FuckingRotter]

There hasn't been any reports here of a Republican killing. Could be for a variety of reasons, including the small matter of a general election. What usually gets reported here nowadays is when "dissident" nationalists off a Catholic public servant. There seems to be little press interest in the paramilitary feuding that was played out alongside the troubles, or as Ronnie Drew described it "the emergency".

[grants70]

Originally Posted by tom8517

....The loyalist, UDA man Colin Horner apparently as a result of a dispute inside the Antrim UDA. His family and friends all lamenting that he had changed his ways, had left violence behind, wanted nothing more than raise his family in peace....

Obviously his change of ways didn't exonerate or make him immune from retribution.

[tom8517]

I don't believe for a minute that he really left. There is a nasty feud over drug turf within the UDA, if he had really left it all behind they wouldn't have brought this kind of heat on themselves

After the troubles both sides took up free enterprise, the uda has the drug rackets, the republicans, given their control of the border, smuggling, mainly fuel and cigarettes

[grants70]

Fuel smuggling, really? Is it rationed or hard to get over there?

[tom8517]

Fuel smuggling is not really accurate, the more precise name would be fuel laundering. Basically it removing the marker dyes from lower cost fuel intended for agriculture and selling it at the higher market price. The process leaves behind toxic byproducts that can have serious environmental impacts.

[tom8517]

Early exit polls showing a good chance of a hung Parliament. SInn Fein's 4 to 6 seats could be big. Concessions would have to be huge to end abstentionism and take the seats though.

[FuckingRotter]

Concessions from who? None of the major parties support the various UK seperatist movements. The SNP have lost twenty seats, Labour gains were pitiful, and most of the parliamentary party doesn't support its leader any way. The Conservatives would need to rely on the Unionists to vote their way to get any thing done. The whole thing is a fucking mess!

[tom8517]

Sinn Fein reaffirmed they will not take their seats. Huge night for them though, went from four seats to seven. Had Labour gotten close enough that seven seats would have made a difference, then maybe a deal could have been done. Effectively buried the SDLP.

The DUP also had a big night, they may have some real leverage with the conservatives.

[FuckingRotter]

News here already suggesting the DUP would support a Conservative government.

[FuckingRotter]

Theresa May has announced she will form a minority government with support from the DUP. So no formal coalition.

[tom8517]

Now that the bit players, UUP and SDLP, have been brushed aside its time for the big two to behave like adults and restore power sharing. It's particularly important for Sinn Fein to show the converts they won from the SDLP that they made the right choice.

Abstaining from Westminster puts off some moderate nationalists, but it was the right choice. Sinn Fein taking their seats would have torn the party in two and driven mainstream republicans into the dissident camp.

[FuckingRotter]

MPs that don't attend parliament should be replaced by those that will. There should be a minimum attendance and voting requirement.

[tom8517]

The people that voted for Sinn Féin did so with the full knowledge that they would not go to westminster. Replacing them subverts the election. SInn Fein does get a financial benifit, sort of a delicious irony the British government funding Irish Republicans.

[FuckingRotter]

Meanwhile the snowflakes are melting all over social media at the thought that Theresa May who "lost" the election is forming a government, whilst Jeremy Corbyn who "won" the election, isn't.

It's like the EU referendum all over again. Do these idiots not have a basic grasp of arithmetic?

[tom8517]

The next few weeks should be interesting. Foster has far more influence now than 10 seats would normally give her. Might turn out to be the DUP tail wagging the conservative dog.

[FuckingRotter]

The Conservatives threw the Lib Dems a few scraps when the coalition government was formed, free school meals and a referendum on an alternative voting system. Conveniently for them then, the Lib Dems reciprocated by blocking any move against the EU.

If any thing, the DUP seem to be more libertarian than the Conservative party. The only difference this arrangement really makes is to Theresa Mays stated intent to "walk away" from Brexit negotiations if a decent deal can't be made. The Conservatives will immediately lose the support of any Northern Ireland party if this happens, because it is recognised that a frictionless border between the UK and Ireland needs to be achieved.

I'd support that myself - it just makes sense. We had a more or less open border before the troubles and the EEC came along. It almost seems to be as if the two arrived together! Quite how that fits with the UK ambition to control immigration from the rest of the EU is another thing entirely.