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Old 08-22-2010, 03:55 AM   #21
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You think? Where will this global village stop exactly? Are Sunni and Shia to be made to worship side by side under the same roof? Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Jains and Parsees will need there own little annexes. And what if The Pissed-Up Testicosticles refuse to worship under the same roof as The Arse-Licking Brides of the Red Christ and want their own piece of the action?

What next Columbus? Malls of Iconism with posters of Che being sold alongside Bin Laden dolls? Buy two saintly metatarsals and get a Free Nelson Mandela?

This isn't peace and tolerance, this is fucking ridiculous.


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Not a bad idea actually. Add a Greek Orthodox and Roman catholic church and we could have the pentagon of faith! That sounds creepy actually but might be a good thing anyway.
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Old 08-22-2010, 04:00 AM   #22
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I agree with you most heartily on this! By supporting moderate Muslims in their wish to built the center and mosque we in fact defeat the forces of radical Islam by showing all of Islam we accept their faith and do not paint all Muslims are terrorist. Inclusion and not exclusion is the path to defeating religious extremism!
I partly agree with you on this Somedude. The Christian instruction to turn the other cheek resonates with me. BUT, I turn the other cheek only once.

The meek will certainly NOT inherit the earth. Only the strongest will survive as proved throughout history.
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Old 08-22-2010, 04:02 AM   #23
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You think? Where will this global village stop exactly? Are Sunni and Shia to be made to worship side by side under the same roof? Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Jains and Parsees will need there own little annexes. And what if The Pissed-Up Testicosticles refuse to worship under the same roof as The Arse-Licking Brides of the Red Christ and want their own piece of the action?

What next Columbus? Malls of Iconism with posters of Che being sold alongside Bin Laden dolls? Buy two saintly metatarsals and get a Free Nelson Mandela?

This isn't peace and tolerance, this is fucking ridiculous.
FR at his fucking best. I love it, I really do. The man's a born again genius.
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Old 08-22-2010, 04:39 AM   #24
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Yes. Damn! you said in 3 sentences what it took me 2 paragraphs.

"Inclusion and not exclusion is the path to defeating religious extremism!"
That's how the Romans did it.
Well I do always try to say as much as possible with the fewest words!
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Old 08-22-2010, 05:01 AM   #25
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I partly agree with you on this Somedude. The Christian instruction to turn the other cheek resonates with me. BUT, I turn the other cheek only once.

The meek will certainly NOT inherit the earth. Only the strongest will survive as proved throughout history.
I'm not talking about turning the other cheek and anyone who knows me well will tell you I'm certainly not meek! What I speak of is the strength to accept and include all faiths in our society and to fight extremism by including the non-extreme members of Islam in our society. Exclusion and anti-Muslim stances only increase the strength of radical Islamists!
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Old 08-22-2010, 05:50 AM   #26
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I have to agree with Snark and SD here.

Personally, I think they should have done what the rest of the world does in the aftermarth of a terrorist attack, mourn, rebuild, leave a plaque and move on.

It's healthier for you, for the country and for the world in general.

Lets be brutally honest, if you don't, you risk becoming the equivelant of the old woman everyone knows who is still mourning the loss of her first love decades ago, pitied but not resepcted.

Talk about it sure, have a service to mark the anniversories, but don'r hate everyone who shares the same religion as the murderers, show the world that the US is bigger than that, that it's when it talks about freedom of religion it means it, that it's not just some meaninless phrase written by a bunch of men two centuries ago.

In other words, let them build their mosque, show them that it is Al Queda you hate, not Islam. Give the moderate muslims an example to show people that America is not the 'Great Satan' that she is made out to be, but a wonderful country, full of oppotunity.

And please, no one play the 'its not like that it a Arab country' card, your right, but that is a non-argument, just as 'he did it as well' is a non-defence...
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Old 08-22-2010, 11:50 AM   #27
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It isn't the building of the Mosque that many Americans object to, it is location, location, location. If moderate Muslims truly desired the respect, tolerance and acceptance of the American people as they claim, they would never have planed to build the Mosque in such close proximity to Ground Zero, but despite the controversy the Mosque leader says there will be no compromise on location. Well I say, You got to give a little to get a little, even if it hurts a little, that is how you earn tolerance and respect.

We turned the other cheek the first time Muslim extremist bombed the Trade Center, we mourned, rebuilt, and moved on, the second time after killing 3,000 innocent people in our streets we optioned for an eye for an eye, rather then turning the other cheek.

The only people in the world that should think of the US as the "Great Satan" are those who shed the innocent blood of our brothers and sisters in the streets and buildings of our Nation, America and the UK have all ways been the first Nations to come to the aid of other Countries when tragedy strikes them, be it Haiti, Pakistan etc, and even when other countries join in on that effort it is we who do the heavy lifting, and when tragedy strikes us we take care of our own, with little or no help from our friends, Great Satan? No, Americans are tolerant peace loving people, maybe even a little naive, we are not prefect, nor are any other peoples of this world.
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Old 08-22-2010, 12:08 PM   #28
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3000...how many INNOCENT people have been killed in Iraq and Afghaninstan since 2002..

4...5...6...7..8...9...10 thousand people plus...maybe there realitives are now thinking of an eye for an eye...or maybe that only counts if the victims are yanks?
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Old 08-22-2010, 12:34 PM   #29
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FR at his fucking best. I love it, I really do. The man's a born again genius.
Well, he's a born again something I will certainly agree. I think he missed his calling. He should really try stand-up comedy. He could definitely give Ricky Gervais a run for his money.
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Old 08-22-2010, 12:36 PM   #30
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3000...how many INNOCENT people have been killed in Iraq and Afghaninstan since 2002..

4...5...6...7..8...9...10 thousand people plus...maybe there realitives are now thinking of an eye for an eye...or maybe that only counts if the victims are yanks?
How many innocent Iraqis were tortured and slaughtered by Saddam Hussein? A million dead Iraqis, in war and through terror, may not be far from the mark in a country of 22 million people. "Enemies of the state" are eliminated, and their spouses, adult children and even cousins are often tortured and killed along with them, and that doesn't include the number of people who were killed, terrorized and raped by his sons. Maybe their relatives believe the price of freedom is worth the cost. Iraqis are freer now and live better lives then they ever did under his rule, as does Afghanistan under Taliban rule.

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Old 08-22-2010, 01:25 PM   #31
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Well how does one define "freer"? And does anyone really believe we invaded Iraq out of of some altruistic motive? I mean c'mon, seriously. There are plenty of other countries around the world with "evil dictators" where atrocities are commited against groups of people. You can find plenty in Africa I'm sure, not to mention China and their repression of Tibet. If we really gave such a damn about the plight of others in foreign lands there were plenty of opportunities for us to invade any number of countries before Iraq on that pretext. But we didn't.
Now in Iraq, thanks to the overthrow of Saddam they get to enjoy insurgents setting off car bombs in public places, killing innocent people left and right. Suicide bombers showing up at police stations, voting places and killing more innocent people. Not to mention an infrastructure destroyed by the war. So if living in fear of suicide bombers rather than living in fear of the evil dictator is freer it's an odd definition to be sure.
Yes it would be interesting to know if the Iraqi's think their lives are better now.
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Old 08-22-2010, 02:33 PM   #32
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Would Iraq have been invaded in the first place if their only export was carrots instead of oil? I think not.
Snarksy has a valid point - why haven't we taken out Mugabe for instance? Again - no oil in Bongo Bongo land.
Why do we tolerate and even suck up to those two-faced fucking camel drivers, the Saudis? Oil.
And before you say ther's no oil in Afghanistan, it's the only route for the oil pipeline from Russia.
The Governments of the West don't run our countries, Big Business does.
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Old 08-22-2010, 03:34 PM   #33
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America was born from a group seeking to escape religious persecution. Granted that was over 300 years ago, but those ideals still hold true for the most part. Or at least they did in the part of the US that I live in. But that is easy for me to say as we weren't the ones that directly experienced the attacks. To us it was something we watched on TV. While we were appalled at what happened it did not directly impact us as it did so many others. That very fact gives me a someone what neutral vantage point.

Having said that, I can't for the life of me imagine what the hell they are thinking about building the mosque there. I cannot for the life of me imagine a better way to rub salt into the wound. It would be no different than a drunk driver killing one of my children and then showing up at the funeral to show their "respect" for them. Granted, that is an individual, but I find the analogy to be reasonable.

Religion, pick your version, has been responsible for more deaths than any other cause. While I consider myself Christian, I am also ashamed of what has been done in the name of Christianity. Likewise I expect most Muslims to feel the same way of what happened on 9/11. The big difference is that I don't shove my beliefs down other peoples throats as seems to be the case with way too many people. To me they are extremists with nothing more in their mind other than to advance some kind of agenda.

This mosque is someone's agenda and nothing more. As such it needs to be stopped.
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Old 08-22-2010, 03:43 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by batffink View Post
Would Iraq have been invaded in the first place if their only export was carrots instead of oil? I think not.
Snarksy has a valid point - why haven't we taken out Mugabe for instance? Again - no oil in Bongo Bongo land.
Why do we tolerate and even suck up to those two-faced fucking camel drivers, the Saudis? Oil.
And before you say ther's no oil in Afghanistan, it's the only route for the oil pipeline from Russia.
The Governments of the West don't run our countries, Big Business does.
Of course it was oil, or at least the hope of establishing a friendly nation in the middle east. That's as far as Iraq goes.
Afganistan is a different story. That one was justified I do feel. Those asshole Taliban were in charge and were happily providing refuge for Bin Fucking Laden.
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Old 08-23-2010, 07:31 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by batffink View Post
Would Iraq have been invaded in the first place if their only export was carrots instead of oil? I think not.
Snarksy has a valid point - why haven't we taken out Mugabe for instance? Again - no oil in Bongo Bongo land.
Why do we tolerate and even suck up to those two-faced fucking camel drivers, the Saudis? Oil.
And before you say ther's no oil in Afghanistan, it's the only route for the oil pipeline from Russia.
The Governments of the West don't run our countries, Big Business does.
World war 1 was started over the assassination of one man, Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria, the heir to the throne of Austria-Hungary, his assassination is seen as the immediate trigger of the war, so wars a lot bigger then the Iraq war have been fought over more trivial things then oil,
Without oil America and every other civilized Nation in the world would come to a stand still, both economically and militarily, no trucks, planes or trains to deliver food and other supplies, no heat for your homes, no emergency services, nothing, it all takes oil, without it you would not be living the lives that you are accustom to. As bad as war is, I for one would not want the likes of Saddam Hussein or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad being in charge of saying who gets the oil and how much.

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America was born from a group seeking to escape religious persecution. Granted that was over 300 years ago, but those ideals still hold true for the most part. Or at least they did in the part of the US that I live in. But that is easy for me to say as we weren't the ones that directly experienced the attacks. To us it was something we watched on TV. While we were appalled at what happened it did not directly impact us as it did so many others. That very fact gives me a someone what neutral vantage point.

Having said that, I can't for the life of me imagine what the hell they are thinking about building the mosque there. I cannot for the life of me imagine a better way to rub salt into the wound. It would be no different than a drunk driver killing one of my children and then showing up at the funeral to show their "respect" for them. Granted, that is an individual, but I find the analogy to be reasonable.

Religion, pick your version, has been responsible for more deaths than any other cause. While I consider myself Christian, I am also ashamed of what has been done in the name of Christianity. Likewise I expect most Muslims to feel the same way of what happened on 9/11. The big difference is that I don't shove my beliefs down other peoples throats as seems to be the case with way too many people. To me they are extremists with nothing more in their mind other than to advance some kind of agenda.

This mosque is someone's agenda and nothing more. As such it needs to be stopped.
VERY WELL SAID.
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Old 08-23-2010, 11:06 AM   #36
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"My Fellow Americans" It doesnt matter what we think or what our opinions are on this Mosques location. It is going to be there because that is what Pres Obama wants.

But a nice Plaque on the building would be nice to appease some people. "This Building was erected in peace. To honor the Dead citizens of 9/11 as well as those of Iraq and others thru the world that died thru violence. Let this be a place of peace and Hope!"
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Old 08-26-2010, 04:13 AM   #37
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Everything about this issue, no matter what angle you are debating from has one root cause or reason for existing as an arguement.

MONEY!

Please don't fool yourselves that its anything more than that. lil-mac, fr, batfink and others have touched on this.

Iraq? Oil....nothing more
Afganistan? Belive it or not, they have huge untapped oil reserves, Plus these pleasant little poppies that look just simply darling in a floral arrangment. Which also can be turned into heroin.

9/11 itself? Someone if not many people gained from that. Conspiracy nuts will say it was allowed to happen by the U.S government who had full knowledge of the plan and always intended to use the even as an excuse to launch attacks on other countries.

The suicide attacks on the World Trade Centre were unthinkable and the media would have you belive that they were motivated by nothing but hate. I'm sure there was hate involved but something of that scale just because you don't like another country? The men flying those planes, who are now at that big World of Warcraft convention they were promised were just puppets, manipulated by higher up powers in Al-Qudea. The very same higher powers that probabilly said "and once you are gone don't worry about your family, money and possessions. We will look after those"

The terrorists we hate for flying those planes are as much victims as the innocents in the planes and the World Trade towers 1 & 2.

Who has more money since 9/11?......Blame them
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Old 08-26-2010, 07:40 AM   #38
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Conspiracy theorist have the idea that many important political events or economic and social trends are the products of secret plots that are largely unknown to the general public, such as, many believe that the government has a conspiracy to cover up UFOs, some believe the assassination of John F. Kennedy was a conspiracy, Some think 9/11 was. There are many conspiracy theorys, Princess Diana, Marilyn Monroe, The New World Order, Men in Black etc, none of which can be proven nor disproved without question, that is why it is called a conspiracy theory, it is also a theory that any war, attack or retaliation against terrorist or a country harboring terrorist is due to oil, that's my theory any ways.

When it come to "this issue" Ground Zero, it may be about money, votes, etc were the politicians are concerned, but not for the families and friends who had loved one murdered in the trade towers.
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Old 09-18-2010, 09:17 PM   #39
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I was down there 2 blocks away trying to get closer because I needed to pick-up my letter of recommendation for a scholarship to be postmarked that day. (Yes- I was single minded.)

I finally gave up insisting I pass the NYPD when the first building came down. I had no clue what's going on. I couldn't even believe it. It was unreal seeing smoke and papers and people dazed. Dust.

Cell phones didn't work. Payphones had lines. Car radios fed a bit of info but no one knew what happened. Then the Pentagon. Then the other crashed plane. Everyone was is a state of shock. And sadness. Like how can any of this happen? Who can think of such things?

I personally do not feel a mosque should be going anywhere near downtown Manhattan. It's poor taste. And it will become a target of hate that will perpetuate the cycle of hate. There is no such thing as tolerance because tolerance is not acceptance. And as a New Yorker, we cannot accept being beaten down. Should we tolerate and plant some trees? WTF?

The flip side is that social progress has to be initiated by someone somehow or nothing will change - remember Martin Luther King Jr.? But Ground Zero is not the place and now is not the time for this progress of united fuzzy huggy do-gooder symbolic movement.

I heard about this thread and stayed away from RB knowing I'd eventually get riled up over this.






Quote:
Originally Posted by batffink View Post
"tasteful"

Now that is a nearly unknown word in America. If it came to "tasteful" versus "land at a zillion dollars a square metre" in downtown Manhattan, "tasteful" would come in a long distand second.

It's called supply and demand. Free markets.

Tasteful unknown in America? Finky- I cannot believe you can throw that into this discussion.



Quote:
Originally Posted by FuckingRotter View Post
*chuckle*

Not of course that we should expect our Septic cousins to take a blind bit of notice of what us old worlders think. They will continue to carve their own path in the world. Good luck to them I say, if they can live with the consequences.

America. Dazzling, loud, often completely tasteless, somewhat troubling in their enthusiasm for spreading their confused philosophy of freedom. Strikes me as a naive country, I sincerely hope their love for democracy isn't their undoing just because not all the world sees it their way.


Our philosophies on freedom (confusing or not) is the backbone of what makes countries prosper. Our beliefs in democracy creates political stability. Why are there poor countries? Because of their unstable governments. Multinationals will not invest there. Hence no jobs, no income for the people, no services to serve the population, no taxes for the government, no infrastructure, no schools, no education, nothing. Political instability causes investors to look elsewhere.

Naive? We developed the philosophical model for economic growth. Look at Haiti, Philippines, North Korea. Why do their citizens have slums, unemployment and lack of social services? Because of their government. As imperfect as we are, we promote the concept of freedom because we understand that freedom is the best path to opportunities for the masses.

Why hold such contempt for our idealism?

I love New York. It's fast, loud, 24/7. On point. World financial markets depend on the NYSE to make the world go round. We ARE the financial capital of the world. The World Trade Center symbolized the success of our ideologies. That's why some fuck wits crashed planes into them.

Anyone wants to complain about the America, and here in America- do something about it. Vote. Start a petition. Contact your legislators. Things do not get handed to you all fixed by government. We have moral and civil duties to represent ourselves. No one is powerless. It's the ones that complain and do nothing that fuck up this country. We are individually empowered to affect the course of history. Even a smile to a stranger to brighten up their day has a positive contribution. Pay it forward. Respond. Don't react. But just do something other than whining about how our economy sucks. We do not get things handed to us on a silver platter. Represent!

And the rest of the haters from around the world- stop projecting your inadequacies/impotence on the US.





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Old 09-23-2010, 03:30 PM   #40
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I don't think people are really going to do it. It was possibly stated for shock value in order to teach a lesson. However, the shock is too severe for anyone to receive the message, and the messenger should develop other means to deliver what he is trying to say.
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