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Old 11-30-2010, 08:10 AM   #21
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Never preach to me about respecting soldiers. I spent an entire lifetime worshipping my Vietnam vet dad, and living on base after an engagement to a soldier. I get my beliefs from them. Find it disrespectful? Take it up with him. I am calling out the immature soldiers who call out his fellow hero, and gives him a hard time over something that is nobody's business but his/her own. I don't give a flying horse fuck if it is disrespectful. Truth can be hard to swallow. Times are changing. People are beginning to realize the flaws in dadt. It was repealed for a moment, but Conservative America can't handle equality for anyone not a white, straight, vanilla Christian male. I spent my life on countless military bases, and know more than you think. I love that whole 'walk a mile in their shoes' argument. I watched four friends go to war, and three come back hollowed out inside. The fourth didn't come back at all. I don't care if any of them are gay. They are all equally heros.
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Old 11-30-2010, 08:30 AM   #22
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@Analeyes: I'd rep you more, but I used my quota. Very nice turn of phrase.

What I don't get is how dadt is an ideal carried by a minority of people. People want this shit cleared off the books, and I'm not the only one.

http://www.fox8.com/news/nationworld...,2202248.story
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Old 11-30-2010, 11:21 AM   #23
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Never preach to me about respecting soldiers. I spent an entire lifetime worshipping my Vietnam vet dad, and living on base after an engagement to a soldier. I get my beliefs from them. Find it disrespectful? Take it up with him. I am calling out the immature soldiers who call out his fellow hero, and gives him a hard time over something that is nobody's business but his/her own. I don't give a flying horse fuck if it is disrespectful. Truth can be hard to swallow. Times are changing. People are beginning to realize the flaws in dadt. It was repealed for a moment, but Conservative America can't handle equality for anyone not a white, straight, vanilla Christian male. I spent my life on countless military bases, and know more than you think. I love that whole 'walk a mile in their shoes' argument. I watched four friends go to war, and three come back hollowed out inside. The fourth didn't come back at all. I don't care if any of them are gay. They are all equally heros.
Whoa.....

Much as I might agree with your distaste for the Moral Majority, nobody here is a member of that group. Put the machine gun away.

As for immature, we tend to forget how heartbreakingly young most of these soldiers are. Most of them are just out of high school and would be wrestling their own sexual identity if they could just get their hormones under control. Of COURSE they are immature. Everyone in this room was immature at 18, no matter how grownup we tried to be or thought we were.

There really is no perfect answer here. Just bad ones and worse ones. It's all well and good to say that people need to just grow up, but that is simply not reality.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:43 PM   #24
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I was trying to keep this civil for several reasons not the least of which being civil discourse is the best way to resolve issues like this. My position on DADT is well known, I have nothing against it per say, nor am I really for it either. It served it's purpose for a time and now that time is nearly over. But for some reason you seem to want to drag this discussion into the gutter, and you seem to want to attack me personally, so seeing how as this is the rowdy room...

You spoiled little brat, I'll preach to whoever I want, whenever I want, however I want. You dont like it then take a flying fucking leap. I think your attitiude sucks. You want to attack a policy, fine be my guest, but dont attack the troops that have absolutely nothing to fucking do with it.

The military follows the directives of it's civilian leadership, that would be congress and the president. You want the policy changed, bitch to them. You made a point earlier about the troops shutting up and doing their jobs. I make the same point, if gay troops kept their god damn mouths closed and did what they were trained to do they wouldnt have a problem. Is that fair to them, maybe not, but guess fucking what.. life isnt always fair so be a big boy or girl and deal with it.

When the time comes to get rid of DADT, and as I have said I dont think it will be too far off now, I am sure the military will do it's best to comply with whatever directives it recieves from the government. There will be some bumps in the road, there always are when a long standing policy changes but in the end the men and women who defend us will adjust and adapt, just as they have always done.

Understand this, I dont attack your beliefs, I dont attack your right to voice them, I may even agree or at least sympathize with them, but I will not sit by while you attack the very people that keep you safe.
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Old 11-30-2010, 06:41 PM   #25
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We basically agree about dadt, you just don't like my tone on the matter, am I right, Lil' Mac? That's fine. But quit being sensitive. I'm not attacking you. Nor am I attacking soldiers. I'm voicing my mind. I thought that was allowed here. The name calling shows a lack of maturity, Mac. Put on your grown up pants, and read what I'm trying say without judging.

I dislike having my knowledge of a subject questioned from a person with no idea of what I've seen. It's rude and illogical. A logical point cannot be made by using the 'walk in their shoes' argument if you don't know what the other person has knowledge of. I simply find your idol worship distasteful, as I've stated. A hero must be respected, but they are still people, and I can disagree with one if I feel they are wrong. That's not judgment, merely an observation.

I don't know you, but I like you, and appreciate your fierce patriotic spirit, but you lost me at the name calling. I quit reading at that point because it's sad and childish. I respect you, but I refuse to have a battle of wits with the unarmed if name calling is the best point you've made so far.

I know you are more intelligent than you sound at the moment, so hear me out. We agreed that heroes have flaws. You simply find me disrespectful about the way I think on the subject. I can live with that, but I do not feel that I was attacking you. You made it personal with being politely patronizing, stating, in essense, that I don't know what I'm talking about. I was questioning the emotionally based points you were making. I didn't have my guns out, either. I don't need my guns to scratch an itch. I'm as passionate as you are about the subject. We basically agree, give or take, we just have different definitions of respect. I'll respect my way, and you yours. Truce?
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:56 PM   #26
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socially behind?,i don't think thats it at all,americans are not eurpeons,our forefathers came here because they wanted too be different,i personaly think most guys my age would be very upset being forced to room with a homosexual male,i don't see this ending well,i hope i'm wrong,but i think it will be very bad for the morale of our troops
It's a little more than just "wanting to be different..."

But anyway, why would it matter if you're roommed with a homosexual or not? Chances are, that guy is taken anyway.

Most gay guys are pretty modest. Chances are, you might not even notice they're gay unless they say something.

Who the fuck cares? I don't. If I was in the military, I wouldn't give a fuck.
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Old 11-30-2010, 08:25 PM   #27
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When it comes to the troops I call it like I see it. It has nothing to do with being "sensitive" or "hero worship". I was there, wearing the uniform in the 70's as we were spat on. Reviled and hated by our fellow citizens for simply doing what our nation asked us to do. I was there in the 80's and early 90's as we slowly won back the respect of the people we were sworn to defend.

You have the right to attack the troops all you want, just as I have the right to defend them, but that doesnt make it right. A privilege I might add that has been won, bought and paid for by OUR blood time and time again.

Since you didnt even bother to read my last post I'll repeat: Dont like the policy, fine... bitch at those who made it... the useless politicians. You can start with Bill Clinton, it's his brain child.

You want it repealed, no problem, lots of people do. But dont have some whacked out hippie judge from Frisco try to tell the entire US military what they can and cant do. Last time I checked this was still a Democracy, not a Judicial Tyranny. It's not his place. That's the job of Congress and the President. Dont like the job they do, vote the bastards out.

When the time comes for the civilian leadership to get rid of DADT the military will do what it needs to do, just as they did with racial intergration, just as they have done with bringing women into the force. Just as it's done time and time again, and it'll get done without any help from you.
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Old 11-30-2010, 11:12 PM   #28
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I agree with Lil-Mac on this. This is a government policy that has been in place for quite some time. The government is going to have to fix it. It can't be the judicial department alone as that violates the balance of power built into the Constitution. It was put there for good reasons so that government for the most part would not be reactive but move with deliberate thought process. That is what is going on right now from what I see.
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Old 11-30-2010, 11:29 PM   #29
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That's the thing. I agree it needs over ruled, and the government needs to change. The issue I have is simple: Soldiers in particular can be cruel to gays, and abusive. They need to be held accountable for their behavior and do their jobs like anyone else. I've been disgussing why it needs changed. Not when or by whom. I never offered my thoughts on those subjects. I've been critized for my opinion, and it's noted. Moving on.

The moral minority and Christian Tea Party Republicians are annoying me. They are the people that fuel keeping tadt alive. I respect their ideas on small government, but I can't back any party that claims that gays are inferior. Gay soldiers are no different than any other soldier working to protect lives. I have respect for soldiers, and am very patriotic. Have been all my life.
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Old 11-30-2010, 11:41 PM   #30
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I don't get where you are coming from. You mention who is the blame rests for this. DADT was put in place by Clinton. Obama was elected saying he'd repeal it but even with the judicial department (a judge in CA) and firm control of both the House and the Senate nothing has happened. That constitutes firm control of all three branches of the US government.

I don't see how this can be seen as something to blame on the Tea Party or moral minority. As you noted, polls show an overwhelming majority of people agree with turning over DADT.

(edited for a typo)
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Old 12-01-2010, 12:14 AM   #31
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The Tea Party and Moral Minority push for dadt, and other bigoty bullshit that gets pushed into law, even though dadt was pre tea party, the present tea party members that were politicians then lobbied for it. However, my problem lies with the individual soldiers themselves who pick and bully their fellow soldier. They are doing it because of conservative Christian values pushed by tradition and the politicians. It drives me nuts.
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Old 12-01-2010, 12:27 AM   #32
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However, my problem lies with the individual soldiers themselves who pick and bully their fellow soldier. They are doing it because of conservative Christian values pushed by tradition and the politicians. It drives me nuts.
OK. Now I understand where you are coming from. Individuals are very hard to control even in a military situation. But where do you draw the line? Bullying is common in many situations outside of sexual orientation. Ask any school yard kid about it. It only gets worse as one grows older. Even certain professional occupations are expecting this and know it is part of life.

I do have problems with you blaming it on how they were raised however. Just as you were raised in a situation that led you to a liberal point of view they were raised in an environment that led them to be conservative. This is not something that you can affix blame to. It is the way life is. You cannot just say carte blanche that one view is correct and the other is not. Life is not black and white.

To fix the problems both sides have to come to realize that they both need to compromise. One side cannot be tossing apples or atomic bombs at the other and expect to succeed. To do so just tosses us back in history a couple of hundred of years.
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Old 12-01-2010, 12:41 AM   #33
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There is no easy answer. It's simply confusing. I'm no politician or guru of human interaction, but I know that seminars and PSAs fail hard. Truth is, you can't retrain hate. If the behavior is there, and the desire to engage in that behavior is strong, nothing can be done, other than show them the effects of their behavior through theropy. I don't have another answer.
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Old 12-01-2010, 03:06 PM   #34
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There is no easy answer. It's simply confusing. I'm no politician or guru of human interaction, but I know that seminars and PSAs fail hard. Truth is, you can't retrain hate. If the behavior is there, and the desire to engage in that behavior is strong, nothing can be done, other than show them the effects of their behavior through theropy. I don't have another answer.
This is the best post you've made on the subject, and I agree completely.
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Old 12-01-2010, 03:43 PM   #35
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I have a question. Strictly theoretical: When a soldier is caught bullying another soldier for being gay, and it's causing hellacious stress on the alleged victim, what should happen? Mediation between alleged victim and bully? Punishment of the guilty party? Or should anything be done at all? Any thoughts?
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Old 12-01-2010, 06:53 PM   #36
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You'd have to be more specific. Soldiers by their nature tend to tease and harass one another about any number of things. This is a way they relieve stress, and believe it or not it's a way they bond. Often this teasing/harassment is sexual in nature. I was called a faggot more times than I could count while I was in, no one meant it. Likewise I told someone they could blow me at least once a day, I certainly never wanted them to drop to their knees. So no, I dont think that sort of thing should be punished at all, and if some gay guy were to go crying to their commander that "Billy called me a faggot" then I would argue that he had no business in the military in the first place. If you arent tough enough to take a little teasing then you are not tough enough to fight.

If you are talking physical harassment, or serious mental abuse (death threats and the like) then yes. The offending member should be punished, there is no room for that sort of behavior in the military.

My big fear is this. That with the flip of a switch DADT is going to be repealed and that at least in the short term there are going to be problems of this sort. Eventually the military will get it sorted and people will adjust, but I do think there will be problems.

Another fear I have is retention. The long awaited report was released today and in it nearly one third of our soldiers said they would at least consider leaving the military if gays are to be allowed to serve openly. ONE THIRD!! While two wars are being fought. Does anyone really think that we cam lose a third of our people and NOT have it hurt national security. Even if it's only one tenth that's still a hell of a lot of people. Not only that but 58% of combat marines and 48% of combat army say it will adversely affect the way they perform their duties and/or hurt unit morale and cohesion.

If the days of DADT are numbered, and they probably are, then these concerns need to be addressed before that switch is thrown. Look at it this way, if letting in one gay guy means that 10 trained soldiers are going to quit then I am sorry but that's not a good trade in my book.
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