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Old 10-31-2009, 05:00 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by menace View Post
Being exposed to a concept doesn't equate to understanding it.

What you basically say is the right thing to do with a concept as important as right and wrong is to introduce someone to it and then just leave it up to the individuals responsibility to absorb it?

I'm sorry, but that just sounds flat out irresponsible.
No, thats the only way to do it.

Growing up I don't recall being taught a set of rules that covered every eventuallity, just the basic this is right, this is wrong, and then trusted to make the right decisions, which I haven't always, but never anything as bad as this, at the risk of sounding holier than thou, even at the age that some of these people were, mid to late teens that is, I knew that rape was wrong, and that violence towards women was wrong.

If you were taking about a group of preteens, children who are just starting out on the path of right and wrong in sexual matters, I would say that your arguemant would be valid but we are not.

Hell, some of the perpetrators were over tweenty, so it is a safe assumption that so were some of those in the 'audience' while this poor girl, who along with her family my thoughts and prayers are with, was suffering her ordeal.

I am great believer in that old saying

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And a great evil was visited that night.
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Old 10-31-2009, 06:19 PM   #22
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Alas so true Pete! and more is the tragedy that we have no Super Heros to save us from ourselves.

Most(not all) teenagers and young people seem to be more immune to random violence. Could be from the Video games they play and other exposure they come into on line as well?!

Of course most exposed to that Horrible scene could well have been stunned by what was happening? Those that were understanding it and not stopping it should be charged as well.

Thank God for the one young man that did the right thing! and as this was a School function the Adults overseeing it should be charged as well.

Most of this was caused by the selfish, selfcentered people of today. "None of my concern" Some one will step in?!" More is the sad part of todays world. But maybe something will change to make it a better world to live in?

All it takes is for a few brave people to step Forward and yell "STOP we have had enough!!"
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Old 10-31-2009, 06:51 PM   #23
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The young girl has been released from the hospital and the police have released a little more information.

The timeline for the attack and what happened was basicly this....

About 9:30 pm the girl(as yet unidentifed) went outside to get a ride home. Once outside the school gym (not a club Menace as you keep saying) where the dance was being held she bumped into someone she knew. This person then (a male) then told her there was something cool going on around the corner he wanted to show her. Once around the corner and out of sight from the school entrance she was attacked and drug down an ally to an unlighted courtyard on the backside of the school.

There she was beaten, stripped and then the rapes began. At first there were four attackers. At some point (still not clear on this) word got out what was going on, either by one of the rapist going into the school dance, or by someone who wandered by. However it happened word got out. People began coming out of the dance to see what was going on, somehow without making either the police that were in the building nor the school staff aware of the event.

By this time the girl had been knocked unconscious and others in the crowd began to assualt her as well. The police have now learned that as many as 10 people either raped her, or actively participated in the attack by holding her down. These attacks lasted until about 11:30 pm, with the girl being raped multiple times by each attacker. They were witnessed by at least 10 additional people who did nothing to help the young girl.

About midnight as people were leaving the dance a young man overheard two people bragging about what they had done and how "cool" it had been. He told his sister what he had heard and at this point the police were finally called.

The police found the girl unconscious under a lunch table. She was badly beaten, a medivac helicoptor was called to rush her to the hospital in critical condition.

Todate six arrests have been made, all of people who actually raped her. Two adults, ages 21 and 19, as well as four minors aged 14 to 17. The identities of the two adults have been released along with their pictures. The first two arrested were the 19 year old and a 15 year old. Information provided by them has led to the arrests of the other four, with more arrests pending.

All six are being charged as adults. The charges include assualt, kidnapping, rape, sexual assualt with a foreign object and some lesser charges. If found guilty these men, along with any others arrested could very well spend the rest of their lives behind bars. Too bad Cali doesnt have the death penalty because that is what they deserve.

As to those who watched and did nothing, some have been identifed but their names have not yet been released. The State is reviewing it's options on what charges, if any, can be brought against them. For some crazy reason there is an age limit of 14 on Cali's "Good Samaritan" law. So it is possible that since the victim is 15 there will be no charges brought against them at all.

*This timeline may not be 100% correct. The investigation is ongoing and facts may change. It is accurate as of the news reports from this morning.*
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Old 10-31-2009, 09:57 PM   #24
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Thanks for the Update!
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Old 11-01-2009, 06:35 AM   #25
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No body in their right mind thinks that that girl deserved what she got. I dont even know what would bring this up.

As for the bystanders...I understand alot about social mentality and group dynamic when situations like this occur. Pretty much, it might have been a situation that was not clear and the bystanders maybe thought it was something, but saw nobody else doing anything, therefore assumed it was nothing. We dont know the whole story. I've witness beat downs and the most fucked up beatings and I did stop for a couple minutes to view the situation, and I didnt go to the police because it just didnt seem like a big deal, it wasnt my business, I figured somebody would do something eventually.

The bystanders could have not known the situation and/or figured it was none of their business...alot of people in certain neighborhoods view violence and dont do anything because its a common thing. Back in my old neighborhood, if I heard gun shots, I wouldnt call the police because it happens all the time. If I hear my neighbors screaming at each other, I dont call the cops unless its keeping me up and then I would do so for my own selfish reasons.

We dont know the situation and the law will do its job. We just need to view the situation as a tragic event on an innocent victim and let the law help her. We are not heroes here.
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Old 11-01-2009, 06:46 AM   #26
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Chi did you actually read what happened? If so, how could this have been seen as anything other then what it was, an innocent girl beaten and gangraped?

Remember, some of the greatest evils in history have been allowed because of people thinking it's nothing to do with me, so sorry, that don't wash either.
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Old 11-01-2009, 09:37 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by ChiTownHoney
As for the bystanders...
So your conclusion is ... as long as it doesn't concern you there's no need to intervene at all.

Isn't that state of mind shared by many during the Holocaust?

Yes exaggerated, no doubt about it, yet still the same essence.

I think calling it "selfishness" is the best possible description. Despicable.

As for violence being so common nobody cares anymore ... that's not acceptable it is simply a sad disassociation and disregard for others - almost what in my profession is called (criminal) indifference.

You're not the only one having grown up in such a neighbourhood, others have as well, much worst even and still some manage to develop a degree of empathy other than helping only to serve their own needs.

I don't recall anyone calling ourselves "heroes" here but some members have been on both ends of a story similar to the one that started all this and maybe some of them "suffer" from a greater emotional involvement than simply wanting to be the person to oppose anything just for the fun of it.

The arguments presented (by more than one person) to defend an entire group of passive bystanders are not only pitiful attempts to justify inactivity in a situation like this but they are also most pitiful - as well as dreadful (if someone actually feels that way).
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Old 11-03-2009, 03:44 AM   #28
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So your conclusion is ... as long as it doesn't concern you there's no need to intervene at all...
No. The focus in not on my own or any one elses personal feelings on what they think they would do in that kind of situation. I have only stated reasons as to why they wouldnt report it, whether its moral or not. Anyone can say that they would do differently or become a hero. I have hope that most would intervene in a violent situation like this. However, there are countless stories of acts of violence witnessed by many people who did nothing to stop the crime. There are unsolved crimes because those who witnessed it would not come forward because of fear for their own lives. People protect themselves first and foremost.

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As for violence being so common nobody cares anymore ... that's not acceptable it is simply a sad disassociation and disregard for others - almost what in my profession is called (criminal) indifference.

When society is desensitized to the point of not caring anymore, then thats a problem. However, we do not live in a perfect world.


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You're not the only one having grown up in such a neighbourhood, others have as well, much worst even and still some manage to develop a degree of empathy other than helping only to serve their own needs.
Having empathy and acting on it are not one in the same. Living in such a neighborhood and disassociating yourself from crimes has nothing to do with human decency, but for the safety of you and your family. I dont know anything about the neighborhood where this took place, but some neighborhoods are run by street gangs and drug lords. Its easy to look in from the outside and comment that any human who had any moral fiber would report had they witnessed a crime. But does your family and your children live in that neighborhood? Are they easy targets for those criminals? People in these kind of neighborhoods become the victims. The police are not going to protect them or gaurd their homes at night after an incident is reported. You might say its selfish, but most humans will put their families safety above all others. Safety is a primary need among human beings. When your safety is at risk, all other human elements (such as compassion and empathy) become less important. This I can understand even if I dont think it is right. Like I said, its easy to look in from the outside and judge. You talk about empathy, well its a winding circle.


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The arguments presented (by more than one person) to defend an entire group of passive bystanders are not only pitiful attempts to justify inactivity in a situation like this but they are also most pitiful - as well as dreadful (if someone actually feels that way).[/COLOR]

Nobody is justifying it, but just giving an alternative point of view as to how this phenomena occurs. There is extensive research done on the bystander effect. Human beings adapt a different kind of mentality within a group. The larger the group, the more likely nothing gets done. A persons core beliefs do not change, but their actions do not reflect on those beliefs. Especially with teenagers. If you see others doing nothing, nothing is what you assume to be the norm.

There are numerous reasons how this could happen. Maybe somebody assumed it reported already, didnt want to become a target, assumed nothing was out of the ordinary.....there are many reasons as opposed to the popular notions that they are just bad people. We werent there. We dont know. I am not justifying them not reporting an incident, but giving reasons as to why they wouldnt have.

I dont believe that many people in this world are truly "evil", but just act out of circumstance.

However, yours, mine, and anyone elses personal beliefs on what the bystanders should have done or could have done do not matter because in the end, facts are facts. And the fact is that these passive bystanders will not be prosecuted by the law. The prosecution cannot within the limits of the law go after these bystanders. It is only a misdemeanor in the state of California if you witness a crime against a child under the age of 14 and it goes unreported. This girl is 15. The law will not go after the bystanders.

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Old 11-03-2009, 04:37 AM   #29
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Chi those are some good replies. I read them twice, well thought out, easy to understand. Clears up the ambiguity (at least for me) from your previous post. Sadly your conclusion is also correct, the law wont be able to go after the bystanders. Not for just watching. However if they cheered, laughed or applauded... that could, could mind you, be interpeted as inciting. At least according to some of the things I've read and legal types that have commented on this.

Also if anyone took pictures or movies and dont turn them over to police they could be charged with obstruction. If they destroy said pictures now you have tampering. It is also very possible that anyone that took pictures could be charged producing child porn. of course proving all this is the trick... we'll just have to wait and see.
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Old 11-03-2009, 05:24 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by ChiTownHoney
No. The focus in not on my own or any one elses personal feelings on what they think they would do in that kind of situation. I have only stated reasons as to why they wouldnt report it, whether its moral or not. Anyone can say that they would do differently or become a hero. I have hope that most would intervene in a violent situation like this. However, there are countless stories of acts of violence witnessed by many people who did nothing to stop the crime. There are unsolved crimes because those who witnessed it would not come forward because of fear for their own lives. People protect themselves first and foremost.
Well, you said yourself you do not intervene - even if you do, for your own selfish reasons. I might have misinterpreted of course so thank you for coming back for a more detailed response.

I am not saying everyone had to act. If there actually were a lot of teenagers around ... nobody would blame another 15-year-old (for example) for being scared.

I think we are all aware as to why someone might not intervene, as to what reasons people might have not to act. Doesn't mean we cannot be shocked, disgusted or angered by them. I could also give several reasons why the assailants might have attacked and raped the victim. But what would that change?

Nothing.

As some people so eloquently put it: Facts are facts, everything else is speculation. So we cannot know why things happened the way they did, we can only consider the (in-)actions and evaluate them.

I assume pretty much everyone around here has - over the course of their lives - learned this world is not perfect and never will be.
That's not the question.
The only question we can ask ourselves is: "Do I simply accept it the way it is or am I willing to do my part in trying to improve it?"
We are not talking about crime taking place in a matter of seconds or even minutes ... there was enough time for someone to do something.

Assuming they all (eventually) had to be too afraid for their own safety (or the safety of their families even) to act is as unjustified as you call those who judge this behaviour. I am not denying these neighbourhoods do exist but how do we know this was one of them?

You like to make a point of people looking at it from the outside. Are you from such a neighbourhood, run by drug-warlords, everyone might put their own and their family's lives in danger when they talk to the police, where the law is absent?
Do you know I am not from such a neighbourhood?
Do you know others around here are not?

I am well aware of group mentality but then again - like I said - reasons for the rapists might be given as well as this is also subject of extensive research (I should know). This kind of apathy is not an absolute however, other incidents have been recoreded where people actually did step up (sometimes with dire consequences for themselves), some around here have been there themselves, so naturally those who feel it is in fact human compassion and decency that should compell us to help will have strong opinions about it.

I know the discussion (in the end) is pointless since it happned and cannot be changed anymore. It has happened before and will happen again ... and we can never know what happened exactly, what went on in people's heads.
There will always be conflicting opinions about such an event.

Of course statements like "they should be nailed to a cross" or something along those lines are exaggerated and I do not share them. A differentiated perspective can be required but to some people there are no grey areas in a situation like this.

I didn't know the law excluded bystanders in some parts of the USA under certain circumstances (over here it doesn't) so thanks for bringing it up. But what does that tell us?
Such a behaviour is acceptable?
Or maybe tells us how much some governments have given up on human values (or are unwilling to recognize them) as a responsibility towards others in need?
Can't this be seen as a devastating state of mind created and all the more reason for the individual to step up instead of hiding behind it?
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Old 11-03-2009, 08:25 AM   #31
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People don’t respond to the cries of help by others often because they are more driven by their own fears and insecurities than they are by the pain filled cries of others.

It’s so simple to take that bold decisive act to correct an injustice until you ask the questions about the uncertainties afterwards. If you step forward, will another step forward too or are you venturing out alone, one brave soul against the unknown numbers of assailants?

Will you face physical peril and the potential costs associated with your own harm? How’s your medical insurance? Are you potentially ready to die for what you believe right?

Physical fear aside, are you actually able to provide beneficial aid? Oh, that phone call to emergency services, the police, whatever, is a good start, a step in the right direction, and done discretely might even be done so safely. By all means, try. But stepping up? Making a physical intervention to stop an assault in person? Are you even capable? Are there too many of them? Or is even just the one better able, better armed more capable of harming you than you are of stopping them? Go ahead, think about it as the seconds tick by and you move farther away in your travels or stare on in silence.

There is that insecurity again, gnawing at your insides while the clock ticks away…

Even when it’s all said and done, you’ve made the choice, put your best foot forward and done the good man’s civic duty and stopped whatever crime that was in progress. Will the law side with you? Are you in good standing legally with a copious number of witnesses who will step forward and swear to your good deeds before the officials present and potentially a judge and jury? Did you act properly and in good faith keep with the law, or are you now embroiled in a legal battle yourself, one where your freedoms are now in question as those who once acted against another swear innocence and extol upon the indignities you took upon them? How many voices will stand with you verses with them when someone comes to judge what deeds took place, not only in the courtroom, but there on the street?

No?

We live in an imperfect society. One where we have few real heroes and the heroes we do have tread fearful human lives full of risk and are frequently judged harshly. We all too often find the easiest way is the one that simply avoids the problem. We walk around the homeless man lying in the street. We turn a blind eye to the beggar, the sick, and the injured. We gawk as we drive by the car wreck, the fire, or the blood stained street. But we move on.

We let fear drive us, and eventually fear wins as every predator knows, so we offer but a thin blue line that guards or homes and watering holes like every other beast does and we accept that some of our number will be felled by the monsters in the shadows. We move on and thank whatever deity that drives us or our lucky stars that today it was not us and then decry the injustice of it all.

We should be better, but we are not.

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Old 11-03-2009, 07:55 PM   #32
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I hear what you guys are saying about fear being a possible reason for the attack not being reported but it just doesnt wash, not in this instance.

People were coming and going out of the crowd all throughout the attack and with almost everybody having a cell phone these days a 10 second call to 911 would have been all it took. Hell there were four cops right in the building, the thing would have been over in minutes possibly. It certainly wouldnt have lasted for hours....
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Old 11-07-2009, 02:30 AM   #33
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Well, you said yourself you do not intervene - even if you do, for your own selfish reasons. I might have misinterpreted of course so thank you for coming back for a more detailed response.
No this is true, in the past I have not intervened in a few situations, except for selfish reasons. Theres a bit of fear as well as laziness and awkwardness associated with my reasons for not doing so. It was nothing I thought about as being evil, just acting out of circumstance. Would I say it was the right thing to do, of course not. I do remember a few times when I was younger and I would hear what sounded like gun fire somewhere outside my house and I would go to the window to look, and my mom would scream at me 'No, dont look!" She gave her reasoning that it was because she didnt want anyone to see me looking (on top of that also didnt want me to get a glimpse of any gruesome happenings), therefore I am a witness and another target. So we left it at that.





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Originally Posted by Sternenlied View Post
I think we are all aware as to why someone might not intervene, as to what reasons people might have not to act. Doesn't mean we cannot be shocked, disgusted or angered by them.

The only question we can ask ourselves is: "Do I simply accept it the way it is or am I willing to do my part in trying to improve it?"


I know, when I first read about the rape that occured in front of dozens of witnesses that first peaked research on the bystander effect, I was appalled. How could not one person do something? I was disgusted. What about human decency? It wasnt untill I did a pilot study on the bystander effect that it started to come together in my mind how something like that could happen. And the truth is, the willingness for someone to intervene depends on the severity of a situation. Someone is more likely to help you pick up spilled pencils than to help you when they see someone punching you in the face. Their mind goes into fight or flight. Most people wont get into something serious like that if they dont know the person, therefore disregard it. It does say alot about the disintegration of the sense of ethical duty. But sometimes it comes down to every man for himself...of course we can change it. We dont have to accept it and we can work hard to change it.



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Originally Posted by Sternenlied View Post
Assuming they all (eventually) had to be too afraid for their own safety (or the safety of their families even) to act is as unjustified as you call those who judge this behaviour. I am not denying these neighbourhoods do exist but how do we know this was one of them?

You like to make a point of people looking at it from the outside. Are you from such a neighbourhood, run by drug-warlords, everyone might put their own and their family's lives in danger when they talk to the police, where the law is absent?
Do you know I am not from such a neighbourhood?
Do you know others around here are not?
Well who knows about that neighborhood, it could be like that. It could have been a well known gang doing the crime and others saw it and didnt want to report it for fear of retaliation from the gang. I am not from a neighborhood like that, nor do I ever intend to travel knowingly to one, but I know they exist and I know the mentality of those who live that kind of life. kinda off topic, but I remember a time when I went to a club with my friend and her husband and he met up with some of his "guys" who looked like drug dealers. Well, my friends purse was stolen. We were the only ones in the VIP area with her husbands "friends". We thought she misplaced it and I started asking around about it and looking for it, when her husband immediatley told me "dont worry about it, dont worry about it, we will just report it stolen." He was so adament about me not trying to see who took it. This was kind of shady and I would wonder why her own husband would let his "friends" get away with it.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Sternenlied View Post
I am well aware of group mentality but then again - like I said - reasons for the rapists might be given as well as this is also subject of extensive research (I should know). This kind of apathy is not an absolute however, other incidents have been recoreded where people actually did step up (sometimes with dire consequences for themselves), some around here have been there themselves, so naturally those who feel it is in fact human compassion and decency that should compell us to help will have strong opinions about it.
And thats why they are Heroes. Being brave like that even at the cost of your own life is very admirable. And those who have been there do not disregard the situation like many onlookers because they know the pain and have a more personal linking to the situation the compels them to intervene. Or at least that my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sternenlied View Post
I didn't know the law excluded bystanders in some parts of the USA under certain circumstances (over here it doesn't) so thanks for bringing it up. But what does that tell us?
Such a behaviour is acceptable?
Or maybe tells us how much some governments have given up on human values (or are unwilling to recognize them) as a responsibility towards others in need?
Can't this be seen as a devastating state of mind created and all the more reason for the individual to step up instead of hiding behind it?

Yeah, our world has grown so obsessed with the self driven and less on community. Perhaps this case will change that law. Everything that happens domino's into something else, so maybe the more indifference type of behavior will cause something else and before long, people will see a new approach will need to be taken.

Last edited by ChiTownHoney; 11-07-2009 at 02:35 AM.
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Old 11-07-2009, 12:04 PM   #34
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After some suggestion, I reexamined my sig and found that it is no longer what I mean. I've put that up in the days when RB was a constant verbal battle ground of mostly idiotic people. I haven't really looked at it since then.

The situation has slightly improved, so I feel a change is in order.
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Old 11-08-2009, 09:22 AM   #35
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