Racism or ignorance

[pervipete]

Here's couple of questions for you all,

Do some people say racist things because they are racist, or because they are ignorant? Is it worse for someone be openly racist, or if they just make racist comments to annoy people.

You may be asking, why ask?

Well heres why.

Now there is this women at work who seems thinks it fine to belittle me and wind me up, that is try to offend me.

This she does through two main methods.

Women, now I work in a large department store, where it must be said, the majority of employees are female, the majority of are youngish, quite a few of which are good looking, nicely built ladies. Now, some of the more maturer ladies are also good looking, nicely built women, to be short MILF's.

Of course being male, I like this, and of course her being jealous has to make comments when I talk to them, such as if they are youngish, 'shes twelve'. or about one woman 'shes too old', though she shut up when I pointed out that this particular woman was only 18 months older then me. But this is okay, she is jealous, she is not good looking, so I can live with this...

However...

She has a tendancy to come out with some of the latest racist propoganda from right wing papers. Now, I am liberal, which according to her means that I am not patriotic.

I have a lot of non-white or non-British friends, which becomes a source of material for her little comments. Also a source of humour to delibrately screw up their names, and then take no notice when I say no it's pronouced ******.

But, we are both on facebook, and we have a mutual friend who is of Indian descent.

Now back to my questions

What is worse, someone who fully hates foriegn people, no matter who they are, someone who comes out with racist views, but has non-white friends, or someone who uses racism a way of upsetting others, but don't believe in the words.

And does racism come from an ignorance about another person race colour, religion and therefore can be fought by getting to know one another. Or is it just something deeper?

Can someone genuinely hold racist views, yet have friends from a different race.

[sexfiend]

Well pete,being from the states,i have seen racism i many forms.I do think that people that are racist are also ignorant,to me they go hand in hand.That being said,i don't judge people by what color they are,but by what the do and say.I know people like the woman you talked about,and i don't waste my time on them.I live in a small town on the east coast,but there was a time when i lived in Pittsburgh.Most of the white people there treated me like i was some farmer,because i came frm a small town.The black people that i met and worked with treated me like i had lived there all my life.So racism has many faces,and this world would be a better place if we could just stop looking at what color someone is or from where they come from.It's what is in a persons heart that should count.

[pervipete]

so true

What gets me is the fact that she is being clever.

[sexfiend]

Originally Posted by pervipete

so true

What gets me is the fact that she is being clever.

She only thinks she is being clever,i think she is being an ass.

[ChiTownHoney]

Ok Pete, define "Racist propoganda" and what it is exactly that she says. You gave us a very vague description of her actions and from what I know from her now, she has done absolutely nothing racist.

She is completely not racist for screwing up their names. Its not a big deal at all. And you cant be racist against foriegn people. If she hated all foriegners I'm sure she would screw up the name Sergey Rozhdestvensky, the Russian immigrant.

I dont think that stupid little stuff like that is racist. She is not offending you, so why is it a big deal? You cant save the world you know. Try driving with a couple of people and upon seeing black people, one tells the other "1 point for that fucking n**gger, and 5 points for the n**ger bitch." (As in...running them over with the car, in case you missed that.) Thats racism. Damn, you would really have a shit fit then.

Racism is descriminating or having negative views about a whole group of a certain color.

There are extremes and there are subtle instances....there are big differences between these.

And racist does not come from being ignorant. A real racist knows and hates.

Originally Posted by pervipete

Can someone genuinely hold racist views, yet have friends from a different race.

Absolutely. If you are white and have black friends and Chinese friends, you can still be racist towards Indians or Eskimos or whoever you want to hate

I'm a little racist, but less so than alot of people.....(for example those two guys who joke about running people over). As a matter of fact, its those that are ignorant that preach about all races living together in perfect harmony. As long as we survive as a human species, there will be something to hate each other about. Its people that snap at you if you comment about someones nappy fro who are ignorant. I have a sneaking suspicion that those people are you, Pete. I think you are fairly ignorant when it comes to issues concerning race. But its ok....alot of people are like that.

There is a HUGE difference between racist comments, and racial comments.

[Sternenlied]

Racism can be born out of several things, depending on the social background, educational background, intellectual background, etc. - there is no one answer as to what breeds racism.

Also: Racism isn't racism.

For example. You grow up in little Bumblefuck somewhere deep inside the country. All white people living there.
You grow up believing black people are lazy, stupid and criminal.
Now ... are you really a racist if you believe what you've learned or are you just lacking perspective?

Now, a "racist" who general hates and rejects a certain group of people (blacks being the most common example) but still has a few close friends belonging to that particular group ... that's not racism, it's hypocrisy and stupidity.

[FuckingRotter]

I don't think this woman is necessarily racist, definitely a cunt, but I prefer to know more about a person before I applied such a strong and emotive phrase.

I am a bit worried about your correlation between right wing a racist Pete, one doesn't necessarily follow the other. And I also think it is dangerous to encourage the idea that political liberalism excludes the possibility of being racist.

To me it's all bollocks anyway.

[pervipete]

Her basic view is that Ian Huntley (a British white, child murderer) has more rights then, for example an Asian born doctor who comes over here to treat people.

As for right wing propoganda...

All Muslims are terrorists
All asylum seekers are scroungers

The point about the name, was not so much that she screwed up the name, it was she did it to piss me off, and when told no its **** she kept saying to me it it will always be, and kept scewing it up even when I asked her to stop.

She automatically looks down on and makes comments about any non-white, non british worker who gains employment in the shop.

The row started yesterday because of two disasters that befell Liverpool football club.

One, where overcrowding caused the deaths of 96 Liverpool supporters, and another where rioting by Liverpool supporters caused the deaths of 36 Italians, and the banning of English clubs from European competions for five years.

One of our colleagues supports Liverpool, and was asking about it, I explained and pointed out that Liverpool have never said sorry, or expressed any regrets. Her reaction was, we don't care about foreigners, only our own, but of cause you only care about foreigners.

[Lucy.]

Personally I feel racism and peoples sensitivity to it has gotten way out of hand. And patriotism is seen as racism.

Recently a black politician referred to a chinese woman as "coconut milk". Apparently this is quite a well known racist term. Now the chinese woman was offended and reported racism, and the report came back that it couldn't be racist because it was made by a black person. I remember an old newspaper story where a local paper advertised a creche with "priority to black/asian children". A journalist rang up the newspaper and requested to put in an advert for a creche which set "priority to white children" and the person he spoke to hung up the phone in disgust. In a traditionally white country.

So my point of view is that black and asian people can be equally racist, yet they are allowed to get away with it in our society. Why should a muslim teacher be allowed to wear a headscarf in class, and a christian cannot wear a cross (in a christian country). Its this sort of thing that breeds racism in people to be honest. I genuinely think in recent years white people are a major victim of racism as the goverments try to cater to ethnic minorities. Me saying "he is black" will be met with a bigger outcry than a latino saying "f'ing negro". In the country of my birth.

[ChiTownHoney]

Originally Posted by Lucy.

I genuinely think in recent years white people are a major victim of racism as the goverments try to cater to ethnic minorities.

This is very true Lucy. I think that its all a part of "white guilt" and I think its pretty stupid. Pete I believe is going through that and I think that he needs to be educated. Look, I have a friend named Ana. pronounced with with an ahhh sound and she gets pissed if anyone "latino" pronounces it in english with a A sound....however its perfectly fine is a non-latino pronounces it with an A sound. She expects it. I have a name that you can say in english, and also in spanish. Whoever wants to say it in spanish can feel free to. But I sure as hell dont expect someone to prounounce it in spanish, they say it in english, I say it in english 99% of the time.

If Abehirishir is living in my country...I will say his name in english or just call him Abe...if a white person like pete says "NO you prounounce it like this...." He not only looks like someone ridden with "white guilt" but I will laugh in his face and continue to say it in english how I damn well please.

Maybe I'm the one who is ignorant. I do not associate with only two groups...black and jews. Blacks have proven time and time again to be untrustworthy. I will be civil to them but I will never become close friends. And jews...well that is the ONLY group where EVERY single person of Jewish descent I have ever met have fitted the stereotype to a tee.

[Lucy.]

Originally Posted by ChiTownHoney

Blacks have proven time and time again to be untrustworthy.

A lot of people will take it as racism, but there is an element of truth. Your not saying it because you hate all black people. Its a factual comment of your experiences. To hate someone purely because they are black is obviously racist and wrong. To be wary of someone or expect something of someone, is less wrong in my personal opinion.

White males between 17/20 in groups of 4+ all wearing burberry caps/hoodies. I will avoid.

White older men wearing large macs and walking around parks or public toilets, I will avoid.

Women standing on street corners, I will avoid.

I don't see why adding black men in alleys and arab men on trains to that list is racist. Its perhaps shortsighted and shallow, but all of the above groups have been known to do bad things and be a possible risk to encounter.

[pervipete]

To be honest all, I should have waited until I was, ehm, calmer before starting this thread. So my first post was a little rambling and unfocused.

The name issue.

I don't want to use the persons names for obvious reasons, this being this type of site and all, this was not like pronouncing say Peter as say Pieter or something like that, it was oh fuck, how can I put this, let me back up.

I think to explain the significance I have to go back a couple of weeks. We were talking about friends, like you do at work, mentioned this person and what they did for a living and everything was fine until, she found out the persons race then her face went from

to in a moment.

As if to say how can you (me) a white man have a non-white friend.

The name, as I say this wasn't an accidental thing, I mean we all do this. This was darker, it was a completely different name, and even when I said, gently with a smile, no its ****, she still insisted on using the wrong name, with a look on her face, that said 'this'll upset him'

[pervipete]

Right okay, as I mentioned above, when I started this thread I still a little pissed off, so I managed focus on the wrong issue.

So I think a little rewrite is in order to re focus.

Right, deep breath, here goes.

1) Are some things that are considered racist, more ignorance? and vice versa, misunderstood banter?
2) If someone is not racist, but says racist things to upset someelse, is that still racism, or just nastiness?
3) Can some of what the press say help encourage racism?
4) Is it hypocritical of someone who says 'I hate all foreigners', then to have friends from a different race?
5) And, are accusations of racism sometimes used to stiffle debate.

Now when I am talking about race, I am not just talking about white v black or asian. There are members of all races that hate other races.

Right, before I get going I had better tell you all my philosophy on race which is...

No one race can take the high moral ground, no race is perfect. Now I know that there are criminals in all races, but there are also honest, decent hard working individuals, who only want a better life for their families and themselves.

It is the same with Islamic extremeism. Some Muslims support extremist groups, this could be just through funding or even as far as joining, but not all are terrorists.

I beleive that a person worth to a nation comes not from their place of birth but from what they are willing to do for the country.

For example, Nepalise Gurka soldiers. Now, for those who do not know. The Gurkas are a regiment of soldiers from Nepal who volunteer to fight with, and for the British Army, and have done since the early 19th century.

Now even though they are ready to fight, and if called for die, for the UK and her allies, they are only now getting the residency rights they deserve.

Now contrast this with some of the people hanging around every town centre during the day. Amongst the genuine unemployed and sick, you have the lazy, drunken louts that populate towns an cities. These people who only take, should they have more rights then a Gurka? Or a doctor who happens to have been born in Mumbai, not Manchester?

Should it truly be a case of

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for it?

And I'm not just talking about fighting in the armed services, I mean contributing by paying taxes.

[menace]

I have a much more important question:

If this woman annoys you so much, why is she on your Facebook contact list? Furthermore, while I realize you have to have a degree of interaction between coworkers, why don't you simply ignore her and keep your conversations to a bare minimum?

Or even better, start rilling her back! Go full left and tell her stuff like: "Migration should be free", "You're not English, that's just a propaganda stunt. Englishmen don't really exist, we are all merely humans."



Oh, and I got good two comebacks with the other female employees:

"She's twelwe" = "And will still lose her virginity before you get your first kiss. If that ever happens, that is."

"She's too old" = "Bet you didn't look half as good when you were her age."

[pervipete]

Originally Posted by menace

If this woman annoys you so much, why is she on your Facebook contact list? Furthermore, while I realize you have to have a degree of interaction between coworkers, why don't you simply ignore her and keep your conversations to a bare minimum?

I was going to take her off, but had a rant, got some support back as comments so I thought it would be more annoying for her to read them.

And to be honest, this couple of days has been the straw that breaks the camels back.

Normally, she'll say something, I'll have a go back, and then within the half hour it's all over.

Now having ago at me, fine, whatever. But to take the mick out of my friend, someone she doesn't even know, well thats nasty.

And something else hit me, my depression was under control until something she said, that the friendship with this person wouldn't last, this set off my paranoia, and when they become hard to to contact for a while, I started to wonder...pathetic I know.

"She's too old" = "Bet you didn't look half as good when you were her age."

The ironic thing is, she probably didn't, the women she makes this kind of comment about are MILFs. So that, as my mum said when I told her, was jealousy.

Actually, I managed to avoid her all day today.

[Lucy.]

1) Are some things that are considered racist, more ignorance? and vice versa, misunderstood banter? Yes, certainly.

2) If someone is not racist, but says racist things to upset someelse, is that still racism, or just nastiness? If they had no racism in them they wouldn't think of saying that and would insult them another way.

3) Can some of what the press say help encourage racism? Of course. If Bakri and the hook man are allowed to rant and rave about killing English people in the centre of London while claiming benefits, and the police do nothing, yet would arrest an English person who set up an Anti-Muslim rally instantly, this just fuels more racism.

4) Is it hypocritical of someone who says 'I hate all foreigners', then to have friends from a different race? Yes. Because they obviously don't.

5) And, are accusations of racism sometimes used to stiffle debate. If you mean are accusations of racism often over the top and unwarranted, yes. Too many people are too sensitive to race. Many people will use racial terms such as "oh he's a black guy" with no racial hatred or motivation, yet will get called a racist because of it.

[pervipete]

Originally Posted by Lucy.

3) Can some of what the press say help encourage racism? Of course. If Bakri and the hook man are allowed to rant and rave about killing English people in the centre of London while claiming benefits, and the police do nothing, yet would arrest an English person who set up an Anti-Muslim rally instantly, this just fuels more racism.

4) Is it hypocritical of someone who says 'I hate all foreigners', then to have friends from a different race? Yes. Because they obviously don't.

While I agree with you on point three, but what about the other way round. Can I point out that Hooky has convicted of inciting racial hatred, while Nick Griffin leader of the BNP was found not guilty, even though he was filmed saying Islam is an evil religion.

Also, can the way papers report terrorist arrests actually be counter productive, do they give the impression that all Muslims are at the very least fanatics, who want the Sharia law instead of good old British law?

And does labelling all Muslims as potential terror suspects actually push people into terrorism?

[Lucy.]

I think, and this is probably really controversial, but if we are at war with muslims as it would seem we are from all the hate speeches, the flags over nelson monument, the campaigns against our country inside our country, that perhaps it is a bit silly to continue to let muslims practise their religion here and form the closed off communities that they can hide terrorism in.

The leader of the BNP wasn't arrested and perhaps he could have been. But all he said was that it was a religion that preached violence. My belief is that the koran states that there will be a holy war (jihad) in which the muslims will fight other religions. While I'm sure thats a misinterpretation there are muslims who believe that, and they pose a threat while they are in our community.

What the Hook person did was take benefits from our country, have his children educated in our country, have his wife taken care of in this country, while going out every day and saying he hoped our soldiers died and that september 11th was the best thing ever. While encouraging young muslims to blow themselves up on our public transport system.

While I don't agree with the BNP on almost anything, immigration and islam in particular are big problems for our country. Its far more likely that it will be a young muslim youth that commits the next terrorist attack than it is to be someone like you, and I think we need to be cautious about it. Letting them stage rallies on our capital monuments is just inciting racism and the government, press and police have a lot to answer for in my opinion. They try to be politically correct and do so by making the countrys citizens have worse benefits and privileges than hate mongerers.

Bakri got thousands of pounds of tax money while making hate speeches against us. Even laughing at how we give him money. Even the greatest sympathiser must see that is just wrong.

[pervipete]

Re read your answer, and replace muslim with jew and see if it is familiar?

[Lucy.]

No no, you can't call me a Nazi for having a dislike for

- UAE flags being draped over famous British monuments, and tourists not allowed to go to said monuments because police must protect the protesters.

- Bombs going off on normal London buses that are carrying old women, people going to work and children.

- Death threats from British Muslims against our royal prince, because he fights for his country.

- Bomb threats at major soccer grounds holding 70,000 people.

- Benefit cheats that are not from this country, who rake in thousands of tax payers money and go out and preach how we should all be killed.

- People who come over, claim benefits and do not bother to learn the language or tradition, and hide the terrorists in their community.

- Government and sympathists who let terrorists get treated better than citizens.

I'm sorry but theres nothing Nazi-ish about wanting this out of our country. Australia doesn't let this happen, you swear allegiance to the flag or you get out.