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Old 09-24-2010, 05:27 PM   #41
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VERY! VERY! VERY! Well said!!
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Old 09-24-2010, 06:55 PM   #42
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Indeed. Although I respectfully disagree about the Mosque issue.
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Old 09-25-2010, 01:56 PM   #43
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Fine agree to disagree. Opinions differ especially if you are from NYC.

Snarky!!! Start some new discussion threads.
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Old 09-26-2010, 12:11 AM   #44
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I understand and if I was from NYC I would probably not be able to feel differently than you do.

I shall certainly try to think of a new thread.
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Old 09-26-2010, 11:39 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by jwham View Post
The French sent a token amount of 6,000 soldiers, which were of great help, but their main support was maritime in nature, and that was the real help.

Spain did not help, until much later, for they saw the American revolution as threatening the legitimacy of the Spanish Crown in its own Latin American colonies. Spain's help came in the form that they loaned (and even gave, no strings attached!) money to the US to fund the revolution. Spain also allowed the US to take advantage of Spanish trade and merchant ships as to send war materials.

The English government had the Quebec Act, restraining colonial expansion into the territory reserved to the Indians, Chief Joseph Brant, the Mohawk, after returning from England, where he was warmly received and highly honored, was convinced that the Indian future lay with the British Crown and not with the American colonists.Brant succeeded in getting four of the six Iroquois nations to take up the hatchet against the Americans. Only the Oneida and the Tuscarora refused.

The British hired Hessians and Germans into British regiments, and the use of a Scottish brigade in the pay of Holland, and attempts were made to procure 20,000 mercenaries from Russia, so they need help as well.
Not to turn this into a history debate but as a history teacher I have to say that we would not have stood a chance without the aid of the French, Spanish and Dutch.

While it is true that their direct aid here in America was limited their real value as allies came in three forms:

1. Military aid: There was no industry in the colonies to speak of, very few foundries to make muskets and cannon, so where did we get them? Mainly from France. Not only that but at prices so low that the French government nearly went bankrupt supporting us... which was one of the major reasons for the French Revolution, but thats another discussion.

2. Training: Our soldiers, while brave, were largely untrained to fight a proper war and many of those that did have proper military training actually supported the British, this was expecially true of Colonial officers. Without trainers from Europe it is doubtful that Washington would ever have been able to field a large, effective army.

3. Interdiction: While it is true that our allies in the war did little to help us directly on the battlefields of North America they contributed greatly to interdicting and engaging British forces overseas. Britian was forced to fight what amounted to the First World War. The British were fighting in Europe, North America, South America, The Caribbean and in India. For them it was truely a global conflict, we just had to worry about our little patch. Had the British been able to deploy anything even close to their full military might against us the war would have been over within a year.

As an American and a veteran I am proud of what our forefathers were able to accomplish. However I am also fully aware that without the aid we recieved those accomplishments would never have happened.

Now... to the topic of this thread, Ground Zero. I have to admit that when I first heard of this plan to build a mosque (actually it is an interfaith community center with facilities for Muslums, Christians and Jews) at the ground zero site I was appalled. I couldnt believe that any group could be so callous, so unfeeling as to attempt this.

However I have come to think and feel differently about this. Why have I changed my stance? Education. I have educated myself about the issue and there are several important facts about this project that are almost never mentioned, especially by those in the media (FOX NEWS) that wish to forment hate, fear and discord in America.

The project has been dubbed the Ground Zero Mosque. This description is in itself a lie. First of all... IT'S NOT AT GROUND ZERO!! The proposed project is to take place on site two blocks from ground zero. I'll grant you it's close, but it's not ground zero. If two blocks is not far enough away then what is? Two miles? Ten miles? Out of the city altogether??

Second, it's not just a mosque. In fact I'm not even sure it can rightly be called a mosque. What it is, is an interfaith community center. It will have facilities for Christian, Jews as well as Muslims. It will also have non-religious facilities for civic functions and community events.

These are just two of the physical facts that many people ignore. There is also something else to consider. In America we dont tell people where they can or cant live, we dont tell people where they can or cant work, and we dont tell people where they can or cant build a house of worship. And folks, thats what this is. It's not a church, it's not a synagogue, it's not a mosque. It's all of these and none of these.

America is better than this, at least it should be.
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Old 09-28-2010, 12:21 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil-Mac View Post
Not to turn this into a history debate but as a history teacher I have to say that we would not have stood a chance without the aid of the French, Spanish and Dutch.

While it is true that their direct aid here in America was limited their real value as allies came in three forms:

1. Military aid: There was no industry in the colonies to speak of, very few foundries to make muskets and cannon, so where did we get them? Mainly from France. Not only that but at prices so low that the French government nearly went bankrupt supporting us... which was one of the major reasons for the French Revolution, but thats another discussion.

2. Training: Our soldiers, while brave, were largely untrained to fight a proper war and many of those that did have proper military training actually supported the British, this was expecially true of Colonial officers. Without trainers from Europe it is doubtful that Washington would ever have been able to field a large, effective army.

3. Interdiction: While it is true that our allies in the war did little to help us directly on the battlefields of North America they contributed greatly to interdicting and engaging British forces overseas. Britian was forced to fight what amounted to the First World War. The British were fighting in Europe, North America, South America, The Caribbean and in India. For them it was truely a global conflict, we just had to worry about our little patch. Had the British been able to deploy anything even close to their full military might against us the war would have been over within a year.

As an American and a veteran I am proud of what our forefathers were able to accomplish. However I am also fully aware that without the aid we recieved those accomplishments would never have happened.

Now... to the topic of this thread, Ground Zero. I have to admit that when I first heard of this plan to build a mosque (actually it is an interfaith community center with facilities for Muslums, Christians and Jews) at the ground zero site I was appalled. I couldnt believe that any group could be so callous, so unfeeling as to attempt this.

However I have come to think and feel differently about this. Why have I changed my stance? Education. I have educated myself about the issue and there are several important facts about this project that are almost never mentioned, especially by those in the media (FOX NEWS) that wish to forment hate, fear and discord in America.

The project has been dubbed the Ground Zero Mosque. This description is in itself a lie. First of all... IT'S NOT AT GROUND ZERO!! The proposed project is to take place on site two blocks from ground zero. I'll grant you it's close, but it's not ground zero. If two blocks is not far enough away then what is? Two miles? Ten miles? Out of the city altogether??

Second, it's not just a mosque. In fact I'm not even sure it can rightly be called a mosque. What it is, is an interfaith community center. It will have facilities for Christian, Jews as well as Muslims. It will also have non-religious facilities for civic functions and community events.

These are just two of the physical facts that many people ignore. There is also something else to consider. In America we dont tell people where they can or cant live, we dont tell people where they can or cant work, and we dont tell people where they can or cant build a house of worship. And folks, thats what this is. It's not a church, it's not a synagogue, it's not a mosque. It's all of these and none of these.

America is better than this, at least it should be.
Also well said
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Old 10-22-2010, 01:18 AM   #47
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I don't see what the big deal is. If you got the money, and you buy a parcel of land, and have the proper permits to build something, then what is the problem?

Because its a Mosque and it's near ground zero, what does that matter. It might look like a slap in the face, however that is in the eye of the beholder.

If the Muslims were doing it on purpose as a way to show disrespect, then so what, you really can't stop them, its a free country. If they are not doing it to cause emotional distress and people take it that way, then that's on them.
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