The Think Tank
 

I thought this might be a nice idea.

In here we'll address topics that seem to occupy the minds of our members.
In here each and every one of you can make suggestions (specific ones, not random "x needs to be changed"-ones) for everyone to read, consider and comment on.
In here we'll collect the accumulated ideas of all of you to create a list of ideas on what things to change and how you'd like to have them on RB.

So - If you have any ideas, let's have them.

A question rather than a suggestion...
 

It would be helpful (at least to me) if an explanation of exactly how the rep system works was provided.

As an example, I very rarely give a negative rep, but I notice that a negative rep is less than the value of a +rep. I couldn't find a clarification in the information stickys.

:skull-bee

OK, regarding rep system:

When more rep equals greater repping power, you are bound to see an exponential rise in everyones rep.

A good way to solve this exponentiality and still allow for seasoned and respect members rep votes to be worth more than newcommers and "newcommers" is to link rep power with post count. So the higher the postcount, the greater your repping power is. A minimum of 10 posts would be required for your rep vote to have effect. I think that postcounts are a far more just measure of a members contribution to the board than popularity.

"But what of postwhore gamers?" you ask? "They will have a higher postcount for post that are not a quality contribution to the board." Not to worry, your neighbourhood stalker does nothing half way! We would also create another miscellaneous subsection called "Games" (name open for debate) where your post add to your postcount, but not rep power. Or if the majority feels that postwhore gamers are making valueable contributions, posts in that section have a smaller effect on repping power.

Your opinion?

I'm sorry I didn't notice your suggestion earlier.

I think your idea to "compliment" (and thus +rep) those members who aren't so publicly active but still do a lot of work - the most prominent example being the movie posters of course - is quite considerate and very nice! :)

Personally I don't see any sound reason not to open a thread like that.

Well, thanks to newland11 for already taking care of it.

Generally a reasonable idea.
I don't know if a possible "Use to get your postcount up"-thread would actually be used since it didn't even work in the movie section. Since a high repping power might not be that important to members it could work however.

I always felt repping power should be connected to postcount, own reputation as well as duration of membership to have a fair web of "qualifications", intertwined with the influence one has over other people's reputation.

I'll have to check if such an element is technically possible since I am not that familiar with vBulletin. Quite frankly - I do not know. :)

Since my return, I am now quite concerned with the rep system.

Because a few people are so high up there, it's no longer a real accomplishment to get high reps. In two days my rep doubled. That's more than I did for over a year on this board. Now it seems that a high rep isn't high enough. It used to be considered a milestone to reach 1,000 rep. Now 1 million is the new 1,000.

But my biggest concern is the negative rep. Usually you would see someone with 100 -rep and think "yeah, this person isn't a good contributor." Now with people who have 30,000 rep or 40,000 rep all they have to do is negative rep a new member once and their rep drops far below that level.

Here's where the concern is. Maybe someone who's a movie poster with lots of rep doesn't like the new member's movie. So he -reps them. About a year ago this wouldn't be a big deal because it only slightly affects -rep. Now I'm seeing people posting stuff who has -500 rep or more. That immediately sends a message to people "hey, this guy's no good." In turn that affects the member and presto, we lose a contributor to the board.

Used to it took a team of people to get someone up to -100 rep. Now all you need is one or two to get someone -500 rep.

There's just something wrong with that.

The opening of "The Think Tank" thread is in my opinion a good idea...nice job Stern!

It was stated that there was dire need for suggestions on how to modify the reputation system. I did offer a personal suggestion prior to this that I feel became buried amongst the arguments of many other subjects.
Hopefully there are those of you here who recall that I can be something of a decent chap, a voice of reason and reasonably well thinking. I also hope that those reading these thoughts, questions and idea's won't just dismiss them out of hand.

Firstly I ask you all a question, and your answers are invited in addition to my own.

What exactly should the boards "reputation" points system actually represent?

In my opinion using the term Reputation for the message boards method of rating it's members should represent that members quality of contribution to the board.
Stern correctly highlighted to us all the question of how quality should be measured, and was right in pointing out that it is down to the person reading the posts personal moral standpoint and taste as to whether or not the post warrants any quality.
My own personal suggestion as to a precise way of modifying the present system would allow each board member decide what they feel to be a quality post, and from there the posting members reputation would be calculated.

If the present reputation system is seen by members as measure of popularity, then the methods I will suggest simply have no meaning.

Logically, just because a board member has held their membership a long time, doesn't necessarily mean they are a good member. I feel that reputation should not be awarded for length of service.
Logically, just because a board member posts hundreds or thousands of posts, doesn't necessarily mean they are a good board member. I also feel that post count should not reflect the amount of reputation points that can be awarded or removed.
Quality should be the defining factor in any reputation reward or punishment, and to answer Sterns question about guidelines in quality. Allow the board membership to make that decision.

I propose that the system enabling escalation of reputation reward, due to a members present reputation level be removed. The reputation reward or punishment should remain as a constant figure regardless of whom the member is and what reputation level they hold.
This will eliminate the devastating effect some have experienced with certain members with a high rep level, bullying other members via negative repping behavior. It will in addition have the same effect with positive reputation, thus enabling those with lesser levels of reputation, and newer members to feel more part of the boards membership, as opposed to having what has almost seemed like a class system developing upon the board.

I propose that the current method of delivering a member reputation be altered. I suggest two tick boxes on each board post, close to the icons for "quote" "Multiquote" and "quick reply". Of the two small boxes, one will be marked approve, or like. The other disapprove or dislike. Whichever language feels the easier to understand.

If a member likes or dislikes the post they are reading, they simply tick one of the boxes. Just like any poll post, a member will only be allowed one vote per post.
It's a simple system, I feel it will be quicker for a member to use than the present one, and I feel it will more ACCURATELY reflect the true reputation of the board members. As opposed to the present system where we have seen members with a reputation level in the tens of thousands actually not really be a good reflection of their contribution, and too be honest perhaps shown less decency than some members in the high hundreds.

You will likely find that if one member wishes to bully another by means of negatively repping them, then they will have to work far harder at it, and probably lose interest.

No system will ever be perfect and can always be improved. I think if the Admin, Moderators and Members really think about the system change I propose, and not react in a knee jerk fashion. You will see that it has great merit and would most likely benefit the board long term in attracting new and potential valuable members.

I ask you all to not simply ignore this.

Regards,

Lemarchand

Interesting how the rep system seems to constantly come up at the center of discussion recently. As if some magical solution to all the forum's woes will be found by "fixing" the system. This was discussed previously in the Phantom Zone and my views were expressed there:
http://www.rapeboard.com/showpost.ph...0&postcount=24

It was followed up by a thread devoted to the question of rep:
http://www.rapeboard.com/showthread.php?t=21656

My thoughts are still essentially the same, the system has long since passed it's original purpose of "reputation" if that's even what it was ever used for. Trying to make wholesale changes now seems to me to be wishful thinking to "correct" forum issues which in the end have nothing to do with the rep system.

I call everyone's attention to two more old threads:
http://www.rapeboard.com/showthread.php?t=10573
Sound familiar? Like it could have been written just a few days ago? But was in fact started 16 months ago!

Or how about this:
http://www.rapeboard.com/showthread.php?t=10553
This thread is a textbook example of the problems they were having back then, see any similarities to now?

In both of those examples the rep system was in it's infancy and not even mentioned. The problem isn't with the rep system, the problem is with the people themselves. You can do your utmost to "childproof" the rep system in the false hope that the forum will calm down again but in the end it will simply take a concerted effort by the members {veterans especially} to tone down the rhetoric and to start being a bit more understanding to folks who either make an honest mistake or for whom a slight language error can be misinterpreted due to not having English as their first language.

There are new folks joining the forum everyday, just the basic act of giving them guidance or encouragement {without screaming at them when they make a mistake} is a simple enough task for all of us to help out on. This forum will only ever be as good as the members are willing to make it and no amount of rules changes, oversight by the mods or tinkering with reward systems will make any difference. In the end WE must make the difference.

Cheers all from the Stainless Steel Rat :skull-bee

Touche'

Like Ive said all along, the rep system is not broken. Some of the people using is however are.

Changing it to anything WILL NOT help. Typical mantra lets ban the guns so nobody can get them. Well guess what? You only keep the law abiding people from getting them. The criminals will ALWAYS have a way to get a gun because they dont give a shit about the law (rules).

The rep system is about the same IMHO. The ones who dont care about being civil and thoughtful arent going to give two shits.

What did he say???
 

:skull-big
Not to discredit your argument, brother...
Just can't help myself sometimes...
:D

Newland asks why the rep system bothers you so much?

Whilst I was reading the infancy days of "The Phantom Zone". Phantom expressed his concerns for the negative repping behavior, stating it would stop, and opening the floor to ideas from other members as to how we could, in his words, REVAMP the system.
Only a couple of days ago I see Sternenlied expressing her understanding the notion of changing the reputation system, and in her own words. "We are in dire need of suggestions as to how."

Seeing two of the Mods, whom I like and respect showing their recognition for a change and asking for suggestions from the board membership, is the reason why I sat back and thought for a time about the problem.

I am simply offering a suggestion as to how to help satisfy that dire need.

Simply making a statement that the system is not broken, the people abusing it are the problem, is in fact a very easy thing to do.
A simple FACT is, you are not going to change peoples behavior. You can ask and encourage, but you will never change human nature.

CR is quite fond of using analogies within his posts to better explain circumstances. Actually both CR and I share an interest in using analogies, so I shall share mine.
In the world of sport, you will always find players and teams who will take advantage of the rules, whether it be a loophole or simply bending a rule to it's limit. When those players or teams take those actions it is almost exclusively to the detriment of the sport and it's image. The governing body of that sport never sits back and allows that to continue. They examine the problem at hand, and then they effect a modification or change in the rules to attempt to prevent the same thing happening again.
We see the same behavior occur throughout life. An example being British politics right at this moment, where the discovery of MP's abusing their expense accounts. You are seeing the examination of the problem in preparation for changing the rules regarding that issue.

We here at RB should be no different. yes CR, criminals will always have their guns. But with their guns being negative repping, you can make changes to the system that limit those guns effects.

I have associations with so many differing message boards in both my professional and private lives, and those boards cover a such a huge range of topics, just as I am sure many of you do. All of those boards do, from time to time have their share of problems because we aren't perfect beings and this isn't a perfect world. In my experience those problems tend to be rectified fairly simplistically. I am sorry to say that I have never seen the levels of infighting on any board come even close to the levels I see here.
That's not an insult, just an observation. When RB is at it's best, there is no rival in my opinion. I have always liked and had a passion for this board.

So I compared my experiences to other places I frequent, the behavior of membership, and looked at other member rating systems. I would see veteran board members elsewhere showing a sense of entitlement, but not to the degree that certain members have shown on RB. Whilst I understandably expect the general decorum to be better on, for example a model builder's forum, where you see nothing but helpful advice from veterans towards new members. A science fiction fans forum however, you would think had the potential of a powder keg, (especially when those Wars and Trek fans start going at it) But again I see a generally decent level of decorum. Even in the various erotica forums, the biggest problems seem to arise through spam.
Regardless, my point is that I don't see as many people getting at each others throats on other boards as I do here.
My personal opinion as to why, is simple school playground behavior. You have one individual who behaves badly and gets away with it, then others feel that it's okay to simulate that behavior. The problem is that once that child is suspended or expelled, one of the other children who followed the expelled child's example will pick up where the other left off.
I put up with that type of behavior whilst at school, I'm certain there are a bunch of you here who did also! I thought it completely unacceptable than and I feel even more strongly about that now...It should NOT be tolerated.
In the school playground, the children who would behave badly towards others were typically the bigger, stronger children, who could impose their physical size to their benefit. If that child chose to punch you, being bigger and stronger, it had a more devastating effect.

Do you see where I am going with this?

Levels of reputation measuring in the tens of thousands allowed "strength" for a select few or even an individual. That reputation level became those individuals personal strength in gaining them the sense of entitlement they displayed here on the board. That behavior of entitlement attracted others to do similar and feel it was acceptable. Unfortunately it has happened before, and will happen again. Unless, like any governing body modifications and changes are made. I have offered but one possibility.

If you read my reputation system change proposal earlier in the thread, you will see that the strength of the idea is based around a flat value for reputation rewarded or removed, with no escalation based upon reputation level. That combined with the revised method of reward or punishment will dramatically limit the ability for system abuse.

Fortunately I am "working from home" right now...well my job presently has me working in my own state at the moment. And I looked forward to getting back on to the board, only to find that there was a lot of unrest and upheaval. As a result, because of how much I like the board, I chose to use my time here to try and offer a workable and well thought out solution to what has already been deemed as an issue. So this is not Lem having a rant, as I am sure there are those still here who remember, I only occasionally rant...and that's usually because I am drunk...and I cant drink yet, I have to drive into the City in few hours for sound checks. lol

Regards,

Lemarchand

While I think overall the rep system is fine as it is. The way I see it, you either take it seriously or you don't, I am starting to wonder if there should be a cap on the amount of rep points that you can give out, maybe once you reach.

Either that, or we get used to there being a new milestone. Where it used to be 10k, now 20k or 30k.

I take you seriously...
 

I like the pink bits - so - delectable... :skull-big

Well - some may be serial killers - they do start some threads here around snuff.:D

I just want to bite some pink bits...:D:skull-big:D

First i just want to say how cool it is to see you posting again Lemarchand....
You have been missed..

I respect that everyone has their different feelings about rep but wouldn't the easiest solution be to just not care so much about it.Not put to much in the number.I have a high # and people i have never had any interaction with HATE me.My number does not change their opinion.

It's our actions between members that gives us our respect or lack there of.

If we all just let it go and understand it is what it is(a way to be positive or negative to someones post)then there would be no problem at all.

:skull-bee:skull-bee:skull-bee:skull-bee:skull-bee
:skull-bee:skull-bee:skull-bee:skull-bee:skull-bee

Thanks for the sentiments TDO, it means a lot. I'm only here for today and then maybe early hours of tomorrow morning. Then I'm off away from home once more. I do have a week of downtime coming up after next week. I certainly intend to try and free up some of that time to spend here with you guys.

You mention in your post about because you have a high rep level that people you don't even know hate you. If you read through my first post in this thread about my suggested solution you will see that I draw a parity about a class system forming on the board. So the "player hating" that you experience is certainly evidence of that, and a defined reason as to why a modification in the system really needs to be put into place.
So there in, not taking any action with the system, and not placing so much importance in the number really leans more towards the removal of ANY reputation system.
If it means nothing, simply don't have it.
You are right about it being our very actions between each other that define how members view us, and perhaps the reigns of tolerance have been a little to slack in the past in that regard.
I ask you this though TDO, who hated you when you first started becoming active on this board...who gave you a hard time?

Nice to see you again also buddy.

Lemarchand

Lem,

I totally understand your points.This is definitely an issue that seems to have a different answer for everybody.

As far as who hated on me when i first joined.One of the first times i gave my opinion on something i got slammed.In the thread and even more in PMs.It's funny now but one of the people i had the disagreement in the thread with was Sierra but the most disrespectful stuff was in the PMs.Chi actually came to my defense.

Im glad it happened.I learned a lot from it as far as boards go.(this was the first board i started posting on)I did not(obviously)stop posting.It was like a baptism by Fire and i would not have had it any other way...

Best of luck to you with the other stuff going on in your life.We will be here when you have the time.:skull-bee

So, temporary résumé:

Those suggestions about the rep system have been made so far:

1) Leave it as it is

2) Disband it entirely

3) Link rep power to postcount instead of own rep level

4) Create general rep power caps for every member. Those would only change once a member reaches a certain level
For example 0 rep power starting, 10 rep power at 5.000, 25 rep power at 10.000, etc.

5) Relaunch all members at starting reputation

6) Abandon the number system and implement a single point system.
That way when you approve/disapprove of a post you can add/remove 1 point, no matter how many points you may or may not have.

7) Remove negative reputation

8) Reduce the number of times a member can give rep per 24 hours

9) Equal the pos/neg rep a member can give

I hope I didn't forget anybody's idea(s) in this short summary. :)

Thank you everyone for your time, thoughts and suggestions. You're welcome to keep them coming.

Personally I would leave it as it is, mainly because you know that no matter what you do to it, somebody will complain about the changes..:D

With Respect pervipete...
 

I think you glossed over Stern's point...

Leave as is was included, and even had prominence in the #1 spot...

However, from reading this (and several of the other more recent) thread(s), it is clear that many are complaining that there needs to be a change...

Personally, I am too new here to have had much experience with the system. I do feel that it has been a benefit to my persona though and would be tempted to say the same. Let sleeping dogs lie, as it were...

However, some of those dogs are awake and growling...

More cogent arguments need to be sought out. Critics of the Rep system are being very vocal right now...

Perhaps your cause might be better served by providing solid arguments, such as...

A) with 30,000 + members, we have not yet heard from enough of them to form a statistically valid sample
B) studies show that customers are much more willing to vocalize complaints of bad service than they are praise of good service
C) such studies frequently go on to point out that dissatisfied customers will usually share their bad experience with up to 7 other persons, while satisfied customers usually report their praise to 3 or less other people
D) even silly Newbies like flesh4fantasy can see merit in the current system and it actually may help attract new members

Something along those lines, perhaps...

Flesh, as you are a newbie I will be gentle with you.

My post was my arguement, no matter what happens, somebody will complain, so why should the mods, who do this on their own time and have enough to deal with anyway, waste their time making changes.

If you like rep, you will take it seriously, if you don't you won't, so why worry...

It doesn't mean anything really...

The fact that I have 4 times the amount of rep compared to you, doesn't mean that I am 4 times the poster.

It's nice, I like receiving rep, I'm not going to lie, and I don't want it zeroed, but, do you know what, if this is what happens, then fine, this is what happens.