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batffink 03-15-2010 06:13 AM

How many of you remember JFK?
 
I was watching a programme last night about a US marine marksman who emphatically denied that it was possible for Oswald to have fired off the three shots in such a short time with that old rifle.
Like a lot of others on that day in 1963, I remember clearly what I was doing when I heard the news of his assassination. I was 20.
I have also read extensively on the subject and as a 'foreigner' have come to the conclusion that a massive cover up took place. I believe what that Marine and his friends said and wonder what the American members of this board think.
Maybe my old friend HRH, who has a certain expertise in this field, can shed some light for us.

Stainless Steel Rat 03-15-2010 07:04 AM

First let me say that JFK was assassinated before I was born so the "where I was" would be "Not here on Earth"! That aside I can say that if a US marine thinks it's not possible {or is himself unable} to fire 3 shots within the time frame attributed to Oswald on his rifle , then I do not want that marine defending the US today! Why do I say that? Simple, it has been proven multiple times by experts and amateurs alike that it is possible to fire the exact same kind of rifle Oswald used and get 3 shots off within the time frame. Penn and teller addressed this {and the conspiracy in general} in one of their "Bullshit" shows: http://www.pennandteller.com/03/cool...acytheory.html Though sometimes their shows can get a bit overly preachy, the science was sound in this one. It's interesting that you pose this question now as only recently I saw a program where the "single bullet theory" was put to the test and certainly proven to my satisfaction when the "magic bullet" was shown to have made all the wounds to both JFK and the governor and still remain in very good shape {in the recreation it actually struck an extra rib in one of the "targets" which may account for the slight deformation it received} some notes about that show here: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...758897e673c5a2

Of course there have been other documentaries that work with facts that have also helped peel away at the conspiracy theories but they still pale in their influence when compared to a feature film like Oliver Stone's "JFK", and people like to believe that to kill a president requires some massive organization of evil doers bent on hurting the US. It's tough to admit that just a single individual with a grudge and a gun can kill almost anyone. Funny how no one ever talks about a second shooter in the assassination of Gandhi, or the killing of the Archduke Ferdinand and his wife {though at least in that case there was a conspiracy but only one man actually did the killing}.

For some folks conspiracies are akin to a religion, once they believe in one, that's all it takes. You'll never shake them from the idea of the conspiracy because any attempt at a rational argument will be countered by their "faith" in the conspiracy {which is one of the reasons that the JFK conspiracies will never go away}. But for myself, no, I don't believe that there was a conspiracy to kill JFK. To the contrary the only conspiracy left these days concerning his death is the conspiracy to deny the simple fact that a man who was a social misfit and unhappy with his life decided to try and do something to garner attention for himself {without anyone knowing that he was indeed the culprit - though he obviously failed in that}. And in so doing robbed this country of a man who despite some character flaws still could have gone on to do some great things for all of us.

Cheers all from the Stainless Steel Rat :skull-bee

sindyloo 03-15-2010 11:04 AM

Wow Bats...how old are ya?:p Just kidding dear!:skull-lov

Was in school when the news hit the Northwest and all the adults/teachers were crying and told us all the buses were ready to take us home. Got home more Adults crying again, Gramps and Grandma.

Got to watch it all in real time on our Old Black and White TV....Oswald getting it from Ruby, Shots of Jackie still wearing her blood stained coat, bless that tough Lady! People filing past his coffing in the Rotunda and most touching even for a Kid like me was watching little John Saluting his Daddy as his coffin rolled by!:(:(

As fars as theorys....yea Oswald was set up to be a patsy and he never would have made it to trial. His unexpected death was proof of the consiparcy!

After talking with real snipers both Military and Police. They cant buy that Oswald waited until his Target was moving away from him and picking up speed as he fired his three excellent shots, with what was back then a POC rifle!

Any rifleman would have taken the approaching shot coming right at him and made even better by the car slowing way down for the sharp turn coming up!:cool::cool:

Lil-Mac 03-15-2010 03:11 PM

Just barely. I was only XXX or YYY when he was killed. :(

somedude 03-15-2010 03:57 PM

Only from history and my parents recollections...I wasn't even a gleam in my mother's eye when Kennedy was assassinated!

RT85 03-15-2010 04:10 PM

i only remember 2 presidents.. because well i was still looking like this ~o swimming around in a nut sack

1. Bill Cliton. why: cause he got head from miss lewinsky.. (i wouldnt say no to her)

2. GeeWizz Bush. why: cause he was one dumb son of a bitch

FuckingRotter 03-15-2010 05:00 PM

Hardly at all. I spent about five hours there due to snow, spent it at the bar drinking tequilah with some bird that was waiting to fly to Los Angeles.

HRH1948 03-15-2010 06:30 PM

Colonel Mustard...
 
As luck would have it on November 22, 1963, four country high school boys received permission to leave school and travel into downtown Dallas to see the president on his well published parade route. Unfortunately, we made a few wrong turns and ran up just seconds after the motorcade had passed. As we started to walk back to our car while giving the driver a very hard time, we heard 4 discharges. We were about 7 or 8 blocks away from the assassination. We argued about whether it was gunfire and then decided that it was probably some kid with fireworks. No one in the crowd was surprised or shocked or even the least bit concerned. We heard no sirens. We got back in the car and went back to school. When we arrived back at school, my next scheduled class was ROTC. During the class, my ROTC senior (adult) sergeant announced that the president had been shot.

To get out of boot camp every Marine has to qualify with a rifle. In those days, it would have been a semi-automatic M-14 chambered for 7.62X51 (an excellent and highly accurate weapon). Oswald shot for qualification on two occasions. On the first, he just barely qualified as a Sharpshooter (by 2 points). The three levels in the US military are Marksman, Sharpshooter and Expert. The second time he shot for qualification, he barely qualified as a Marksman (the lowest level) by 1 point. He was known to be a less than average shot and certainly not sniper material. The day after he left the Marines, he applied for a visa to several countries including Russia. In Russia, he married the daughter of an MVD Lt. Colonel. At the time, he was supposedly working as a radio mechanic in a factory. This was during the height of the cold war.

I collect guns. Years ago, I purchased a pristine condition (it only appears to have been dropped once) Italian Carcano 6.5 mm carbine and mounted a 4 X 20 scope to match the American Rifleman surplus weapon that was traced to Oswald and eventually submitted as the murder weapon.

I also purchased a Belgian made Argentine 7.65 mm Mauser.

It is identical to the weapon originally reported by 4 police officers to have been found in the school book depository. They also reported finding 3 spent 7.65 brass casings below the window and 1 spent round in the chamber. Three of the officers (one had previously owned a sporting goods store that sold guns) retracted their sworn statements, but one refused and continued to claim that he read “7.65 mm Mauser” on the barrel of the rifle until his death in the 70's. There is no way that four 1963 vintage Dallas police officers would misidentify a weapon. A suspect probably, but never a weapon.

In the military, I qualified as an Expert with a perfect score and thought that I’d try to duplicate the shooting as per the Warren commision report.

A Navy Seal sniper buddy of mine and I climbed to the top of my barn after we placed 2 stationary head sized targets 40 feet apart with furthest being 140 feet away. We each fired a box of ammo. I hit the target twice and my buddy hit it three times. The fastest that we could cycle the rifle was 3.5 seconds. The rifle is a medium velocity inaccurate piece of junk and the scope is ill suited for sniper work. With the small scope objective it took a good 1.5 seconds to reacquire the target after recoil and chambering. I have heard that the late Marine Corp Gunnery Sgt. Carlos (One Shot One Kill) Hathcock couldn’t duplicate the feat either.

Next, we tried the Mauser with open sights. Again, we each fired a box of ammo. Neither of us missed and we both got the cycle rate down to 2 seconds.

Four witnesses testified that they saw a man in a light colored shirt with a non-scoped rifle in the infamous window just before or after the shooting. Oswald was wearing a rust colored brown shirt that day.

I doubt that Oswald was the sniper and I personally believe that the Carcano was not the murder weapon. But, I believe that there was one sniper with a Mauser in the school book depository. Or, it could have been Colonel Mustard with a candlestick in the library.

By the way, the going away shot was the best shot. There were other people sitting in front of Kennedy. A straight on shot could have caught a hand waving in front of Kennedy and the canyon effect of the location would obviously create echoes inside the canyon to confuse the ears of many spectators.

We will learn more in 2029.

With my respect to all,


:skull-bee

BTN 03-15-2010 07:18 PM

Too young and too far away to have any direct experience of this. But I am a huge follower of conspiracy theroies and that kind of thing so I've seen an awful lot of documentaries and read about JFK as well. Everything from the Zapruder (spelt wrong?) footage to experienced firearms experts recreating Oswalds shot. Its all facinating stuff. Being in the UK my knowledge of guns, rifles and anykind of firearms is limited to what I read or am told. I play alot of supposedly accurate Xbox games like Rainbow 6 but I expect they are way off. The games however do give me some idea of how difficult it is to line up a moving target, shoot, reload and re-aim before firing again. Thats cool in my living room with a cup of tea and my mate telling me how lame I am (or vice versa in most cases but thats another situation althogether) but leaning out of a 6th story window? Wow thats going to be hard. I think Oswald did shoot at JFK but I don't think he was the only one. He might have got a hit (in fact I belive the so called "magic bullet" was his) but the more leathal hits were other gunmen in my opinion (for what its worth)

Does anyone want to hear my Titanic therories now? :)

snarkopo 03-16-2010 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FuckingRotter (Post 457569)
Hardly at all. I spent about five hours there due to snow, spent it at the bar drinking tequilah with some bird that was waiting to fly to Los Angeles.

That's all you ever do anyway FR.

I was 1 when it happened yet I seem to have a memory of the tragedy, people being sad. I have had that recollection all my life, real or not.

batffink 03-16-2010 06:08 AM

HRH, I'm so grateful for your post. It has re-inforced my dictum that whenever in doubt listen to the man who does his homework. I thank you. :skull-bee

sindyloo 03-16-2010 10:34 AM

Bet he was one of the three Hobos they questioned that were behind the "grassy noll"!!;)

TZOFOSHO 03-17-2010 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HRH1948 (Post 457602)


We will learn more in 2029.

With my respect to all,


:skull-bee

I wasn't even close to alive when JFK was shot, the only thing in my frame of reference i can put it to was 9/11 (when i was 16 or so), in a sort of 'where were you' type of frame....

I think HRH's declaration that 'we will learn more in 2029' is absolutely right. I don't think we'll get a government affirmation until anyone who remembers the event is long and gone....

I just hope the JFK one is disclosed in my lifetime.

Crotch_Ripper 03-17-2010 06:42 AM

I didnt think anyone would remember Johann Franz Kessler, thats amazing.

On a serious note most anyone who has been in the military, will tell you there was a least two shooters. Beyond that who the hell knows. The magic bullet alone should tell you something is amiss.

With a shitty bolt action rifle (Carcano), 3 accurate shots in the time frame are not possible. We played with this in the Army and we used an M-16 on single fire. And with a superior weapon its hard to squeze off three ACCURATE shots in that timeframe.

And no matter what weapon you use, in a sniping siutation the first shot will always be the best one, my understanding is the last (Third?) shot was the kill shot. Whether there was a plot or not who knows ,could have been two kooks. But Im 150% sure there were more than one shooter.

sindyloo 03-17-2010 03:30 PM

Cute and funny CR!:skull-big:skull-big

Speaking of the Mattel Toy...the AR-15. There was another Theory that a Secret Service Agent riding in the following car was startled by the first shots.

And his finger hit the trigger sending one round into JFKs head for the killing shot. Not a great shot just a huge Freak of chance!:cool::cool:

snarkopo 03-17-2010 03:48 PM

There is much supporting evidence that Bigfoot was the real shooter. But people love to debunk it as some sort of conspiracy theory. However, there is much corroborating evidence that the Loch Ness Monster was also sighted that day. It could have been giving intel to Bigfoot.
Just a theory of course but aside from aliens... I think it has merit.

FuckingRotter 03-17-2010 05:58 PM

Osam Bin Liner, in the damp cave, with the lead pipe.

snarkopo 03-17-2010 08:35 PM

No. Kruschev with the rope in the Library

RapeKarenX 03-18-2010 12:19 AM

Who's JFK?:p The airport?:D

perfectlyformed 03-18-2010 05:02 AM

Back an to the left
Back an to the left
Back an to the left
Back an to the left
Back an to the left

Although I have heard that bullets can do stange things to people as they pass through the body (or head in this case) so apparently Mr Newtons laws can be poo-pooed sometimes. Everything about the whole Oswald/JFK thing confuses be to be fair and as a former media student my main source for the whole thing is the film.

x


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